Post-Election Analysis

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

That is one of the reasons she doesn't think the war is that big of an issue and is made out to be more than it is.

Thats faulty logic though. Basically you are saying well her opinion is wrong and THEREFOR its because shes just a foreigner who doesnt actually live day to day as an american. What if she agreed with you? would she suddenly be an enlightened foreigner who sees the truth of the situation despite her non american handicap? Keep in mind there are MILLIONS of americans who think the environment IS an important concern when electing their president and that things like the deficit and corporate welfare are significant issues that need to be addressed. Just because people are foreign doesnt mean if they hold these opinions too that they are disingenuous. Personally I DO care about the head scarf ban in France. I think its outragious and it concerns me. Im surprised to hear you dont care about it just because you are an american.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Thanks. But can you please point out where i was stumped? I do think that Americans should have an understanding of the way the US works - and it's frustrating when I find so many people who have no idea. I can let slide people from other countries not having a full understanding - but it is rather irritating when they just think that we should be like them (not saying Earniel was saying this, but others).

I have no idea when you were stumped. I thought I heard that you were once - I was asking you.

I agree, knowing your history is important.

I think someone is entitled to their opinion about the USA (or any other country they don't live in), as long as they have based their opinion on knowledge of that country, and they acknowledge they don't live there. Obviously non-Americans won't have first-hand experience of the issues, but that does not make their opinion invalid.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

You seem to want to ignore this fact and want to believe his propaganda he puts together.

no, i prefer to look at the forest through the trees

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Thats faulty logic though. Basically you are saying well her opinion is wrong and THEREFOR its because shes just a foreigner who doesnt actually live day to day as an american. What if she agreed with you? would she suddenly be an enlightened foreigner who sees the truth of the situation despite her non american handicap? Keep in mind there are MILLIONS of americans who think the environment IS an important concern when electing their president and that things like the deficit and corporate welfare are significant issues that need to be addressed. Just because people are foreign doesnt mean if they hold these opinions too that they are disingenuous.

See you ignored what i said - they can't have a FULL understanding of domestic issues of the US - I don't care if they support my stand or not. They can have logical opinions on how our trade policies and so forth affect them - but then again - they're looking after their interests. But as far as domestic issues - they don't have a full understanding of them.

Personally I DO care about the head scarf ban in France. I think its outragious and it concerns me. Im surprised to hear you dont care about it just because you are an american.

Why? It's their country. I disagree with it - but I'm not going to say it affects me when it doesn't - nor does it affect any American - or anyone outside of France. If they want to have the head scarf ban - that's completely up to them. They voted on it in France, no matter how much I disagree with it. So tell me - why does it concern you?

I'll tell you what concerns me - the practically weekly vandalism that occurs to mainly jewish cemetaries, some catholic and muslim cemetaries get attacked - but the most racist things are directed at jews and written on the jewish headstones and the most damage occurs at the Jewish Cemetaries. That to me is more of a concern.

Brownjenkins - I do see the forest through the trees. I analyse a lot, I look at a bunch of different news sources, and based on my own analysis I come up with which side I agree with.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So tell me - why does it concern you?

for the same reason treating ANY human being unfairly concerns me. Because I believe its wrong and unecessary. Are you saying I shouldnt be concerned if they were lining up muslims and shooting them in the streets? I really dont care WHERE an injustice is happening. My concern is with the injustice itself. And my hope is to remedy it. I dont believe in having no influence beyond your own borders.

I'll tell you what concerns me - the practically weekly vandalism that occurs to mainly jewish cemetaries, some catholic and muslim cemetaries get attacked - but the most racist things are directed at jews and written on the jewish headstones and the most damage occurs at the Jewish Cemetaries. That to me is more of a concern.

as it should be. are you saying this is occuring in france (only in france)? And if so why is it you are concerned about this but not about the head scarf ban?

[inked]

IR and JD,
Did either of you read the article from The Daily Mail 11-5-04 that I provided the link for? If so, your comments?

Also, check my recent post in GLB thread for the TRUE MEANING of the states' constitutional amendments on world opinion! This apect could be discussed here more fully, I think.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

for the same reason treating ANY human being unfairly concerns me. Because I believe its wrong and unecessary. Are you saying I shouldnt be concerned if they were lining up muslims and shooting them in the streets?

I knew I should have kept that sentence in where I said that if they were sending muslims off to concentration camps - that I would have a problem with it. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you wouldn't go to the farthest extreme in your argument and claim that the law against religious symbols in public buildings was the same as people being killed in the streets. I guess I was wrong.

I really dont care WHERE an injustice is happening. My concern is with the injustice itself. And my hope is to remedy it. I dont believe in having no influence beyond your own borders.

So how much of an injustice is this? I think it's an infringement on INDIVIDUAL: rights - now the law is not just against Muslim - but that's who it's really directed at. Jews also can't wear yamukas, nor can christians wear crosses.

as it should be. are you saying this is occuring in france (only in france)? And if so why is it you are concerned about this but not about the head scarf ban?

Because they aren't the same thing at all. Vandalism of cemetaries is a lot closer to actually attacking a person than the government saying that in public buldings, religious symbols will not be allowed. I disagree with it - because I view it as my PERSONAL right. Now I've gotten into this discussion before with Europeans - it seems many feel that the "societal freedoms" are much more valuable than "individual freedoms" - I disagree. America is based on individuality, not on protecting the sameness of society. People in France have said they feel it thrusts religion in their face when they see people openly displaying their religion - period. When Bush said that he was against the headscarg ban and there was a lot of media coverage, French news went on about how we don't understand the law at all.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by inked

IR and JD,
Did either of you read the article from The Daily Mail 11-5-04 that I provided the link for? If so, your comments?

I read it last night - but didn't comment on it. I'll have to read it again and get back with you.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by inked

IR and JD,
Did either of you read the article from The Daily Mail 11-5-04 that I provided the link for? If so, your comments?

Im actually of the opinion that there was more going on here then JUST people voting on knee jerk “moral� issues (moral being specifically restrict the gays and ban abortion). I think you had a couple things going on. I DO think there was a back lash by the conservatives against the gay marriages we saw earlier in the year in Mass and San Fran among other places. And I think for a lot of conservatives this was pay back time. I think if that hadn’t been an issue (and perhaps the gay advocates should have thought about holding their tongues on it till after the election) but all else being equal it MAY have been enough for Kerry to pull it out.

But I think its MORE to do with a much more straight forward psychological aspect of human nature. That is during perceived times of attack from the outside you always circle your wagons and rally around your leader. And the perception always is that he is a better leader then he would otherwise be judged out without the same challenging circumstances. Do you remember how Bush was floundering popularity wise on Sept. 10 of 2001?

Finally, I think people tend to vote with their pocket book in mind. And unless you are in a bad economy or a worsening one you will NEVER see people going in large numbers against an incumbent for that reason alone. The economy may have been stagnant or mildly improving but it wasn’t bad enough to have people jump ship on Bush. And those that have money (even middle class people) are gonna vote to the benefit of their pocket book and they see the conservatives as the obvious choice on that.

Also, check my recent post in GLB thread for the TRUE MEANING of the states' constitutional amendments on world opinion! This apect could be discussed here more fully, I think.

I did. Was that just a joke or were you serious?

[jerseydevil]

Ink - I looked at your comments regarding morality in the Gay and lesbian thread. I can see some validity in them. I mean so many people are arguing about how WE have to change as a society ot prevent terrorism and what role we play in fundamentalist terrorism. Well one of bin Ladin's biggest complaints is the decadence of American culture. He preaches that we're a godless society and infidels. Democrats seem to thinik we should only change the things we do that they disagree with - they don't look at how bin Ladin views our society though and how he has demanded that we change that too. I personally think that we should not listen to any of bin Ladin's demands at all.

[jerseydevil]

By the way IR - many Europeans I have talked to support the ban (not just the French) saying that it's part of the seperation of church and state. I disagree with it - as I said in the "headscarf ban" thread.

Radagast stated the general European feeling that I had found...

Europe and France tend to dislike with people openly wearing religious garb. I would say that this is especially true in Britain, we look askance and feel rather embarassed at such extreme displays of religion. I wouldn't say at all that this attitude is a problem. Europe is not loud, brash, in-your-face America, nor is she the uncivilised, extreme Middle East. She is genteel, civilsied Europe which is rather embarassed at such extremism.

You can disagree with it like I do - but we don't live there. I also completely disagree with his comments that Europe is genteel and civilized - or any more so than America.

[Insidious Rex]

whats that got to do with anything? many americans support the ban on gay marriage. Im adamantly against it. To me it doesnt matter what popular opinion says. to me it always comes down to right or wrong. thats why i commend those early pioneers who fought for justice and equality against enormous dissension.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

whats that got to do with anything? many americans support the ban on gay marriage. Im adamantly against it. To me it doesnt matter what popular opinion says. to me it always comes down to right or wrong. thats why i commend those early pioneers who fought for justice and equality against enormous dissension.

It's not a ban on gay marriage - it's a reafirming of what MARRIAGE has ALWAYS been - which is the union between a man and a woman. I think we should keep the gay marriage thing in the gay and lesbian thread. There is enough being said about it there. I will state again - I'm not necessarily for gay marriage - but I see nothing wrong with civil unions. As has been stated - marriage was brought about to encourage the development of children, not that people were forced to have children. But, why do you think that a marriage isn't considered consumated until AFTER the couple has sex?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

JD, there's a lot of Americans that probably don't even know as much as you! (Unless everyone is really well-versed in American history. I mean, haven't you only been stumped once? )

HA! I stump him all the time. He just never admits it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

HA! I stump him all the time. He just never admits it.

Yeah right. You must be comfusing real life with your dreams again.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Yeah right. You must be comfusing real life with your dreams again.

Quiet you! I would hate to have to bloody up my new stick.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Quiet you! I would hate to have to bloody up my new stick.

Wow - you went through your last stick rather quick. So now you're on your thirteenth. and I see you've already got a spot of blood on it.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

To me it doesnt matter what popular opinion says.

me, too!

to me it always comes down to right or wrong.

me, too!

thats why i commend those early pioneers who fought for justice and equality against enormous dissension.

me, too!

[Nurvingiel]

Thirteen! What happened to the other 12 victims? Or can 1 stick handle more than one Mooter?

Woah, another two-word (x3) post from RÃ*an! What's the world coming too!

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Thirteen! What happened to the other 12 victims? Or can 1 stick handle more than one Mooter?

They handle more than one victim - except when she's in one of her "moods"