02-10-2003, 03:44 PM | #21 | |
Long lost mooter
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02-10-2003, 03:57 PM | #22 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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I'm with you on that one, particularly as it emphasises the importance of the "lesser" hobbits. Like for example that Gandalf thought that Pippin saved him from the error of looking in the stone himself.
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02-10-2003, 04:02 PM | #23 |
Long lost mooter
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Plus the fact that it nullifies the need for Pippin to run after it and bring it to Gandalf at Orthanc, and then the scene where Gandalf and Pippin race to Gondor on Shadowfax -- I love that part, I love the dialogue!! And if you want to take it further, it then nullifies the need for Merry and Pippin to get split up, which is how they end up swearing oaths to their respective lords! So he MUST look in if we're to get all that!
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03-13-2003, 01:29 PM | #24 |
Elven Warrior
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Palantir in RotK
The entire use of the palantir by Pippin and Aragorn would be useless in RotK. When Pippin looks in it Sauron believes the ring is in Orthanc or that the Hobbit knows where it's at. When Aragorn uses it Sauron believes he has the ring and is challenging him, so it makes Sauron attack early before his plans are set. By Frodo showing the ring to the Nazgul in Osgiliath Sauron would think the ring was heading for Minas Tirith. So wouldn't he attack as soon as possible? If he already believes the ring is in Gondor he would attack before they could muster their strength or have a chance to rise against him. I was just curious if other people had thought of this?
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03-13-2003, 03:56 PM | #25 |
Long lost mooter
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I merged your thread with this one, since it is where we have most currently been discussing that very subject.
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01-13-2004, 04:54 PM | #26 |
Elf Lord
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Originally posted by Dunadan
Having also seen TTT now, I think this might explain the daft ring-giving scene at Osgiliath. Sauron would probably believe that the Ring was on its way to Minas Tirith. It's a straight swap for Pippin looking into the Orthance stone. ___________________________________ Originally posted by Melcho Belka The entire use of the palantir by Pippin and Aragorn would be useless in RotK. When Pippin looks in it Sauron believes the ring is in Orthanc or that the Hobbit knows where it's at. ____________________________________ Comments in a discussion before ROTK came out, which makes a scene in ROTK even less comprehensible. Pippin does pick up the stone and Merry later tells him "The Enemy thinks you have the Ring." Why? When Frodo showed the Ring to a nazgulk in TTT? Apparently movie Sauron wasn't too bright. Also, Aragorn not only doesn't take control of the Palantir, but seems no less negatively effected by it then Pippin. Yes, PJ using the Palantir the way he did was senseless/useless. Because Frodo earlier showed the Ring Sauron must think it's in Minas Tirith, but then PJ separates Pippin and Merry using the spurious comment about Sauron thinking Pippin has the Ring??? It seems to me they either forgot or didn't note the inconsistency in the above, or PJ was so fixated with the "Frodo offering Ring scene" that he just didn't care about inconsistencies. Or is there some way to make use of the Palantir in the movie coherent? And why not have at least an allusion of Denethor using a Palantir to explain his behavior (perhaps by Gandalf to Pippin in their terrace scene, where they're talking about death)?
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01-13-2004, 05:44 PM | #27 |
Long lost mooter
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Either way, I don't think it was "explained" (in dramatic terms) well enough. I think "book people" chalk it up to a big inconsistancy/ mistake, and non-book people either don't remember or simply overlook it. They don't know enough to understand that it's a problem, so I guess for that reason it wasn't important to the filmmakers that it be reconciled.
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01-15-2004, 03:55 AM | #28 | |
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Jackson has demonstrated in all movies that he doesn't care about inconsitancies - just as long as he gets his action battle scenes in there.
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01-15-2004, 04:35 AM | #29 |
Elven Warrior
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The problem goes away if we assume that the Nazgul didn't see Frodo holding up the ring. I think only the flying beast saw it, and was distracted by being shot at. We're supposed to think that Sam shoved Frodo out of the way in time to prevent disaster.
The rest of the movie assumes that Sauron thinks Pippin has the ring. In the EE I think we'll see Aragorn confront Sauron via the palantir; there was something to that effect in a trailer, a scene with Aragorn saying "He's had things too much his own way," or something like that. |
01-15-2004, 05:22 AM | #30 | ||
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01-15-2004, 05:28 AM | #31 |
Elf Lord
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IIRC, at Weathertop in FOTR, the Witch King extends his fingers to take the Ring off Frodo's hand before Frodo pulls it away.
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01-16-2004, 09:34 AM | #32 |
Elven Warrior
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If I’m doing the math correctly then Pippin looking into the Palantir happened before Frodo showed the ring to the Nazgul. Faramir says to Gandalf he saw Frodo 2 days ago. And it seems that showing the ring is the event that precipitates Frodo’s release so it must have been on that day or the one previous.
Gandalf says to Pippin that it’s a 3 day ride to Minas Tirith and they seem to be there at least one night before Faramir arrives because they witness that lightning from the balcony. And Faramir arrives the next day. Also, there seems to be a discrepancy between the amount of time it takes Rohan to answer, and how much time passes in Minas Tirith. Rohan musters for 2 days and then rides for three from the time the beacons are lit. It seems to be only the next day in Minas Tirith when they arrive, not 5 days later. I’m not sure how this effects any theories but thought I’d throw it into the mix Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 01-16-2004 at 09:37 AM. |
01-16-2004, 11:35 PM | #33 |
Long lost mooter
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Oh, you're right! I hadn't thought of that, I think he did show it after the palantir episode. But still that isn't made clear (in terms of movie-making). It would have been hard to do that, because of all the time factors that had to be coordinated.
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