04-12-2008, 12:26 PM | #21 |
The Ñoldóran
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And yet I can't stand Túrin. More of a Ñoldor person, myself.
But I understand your reasoning! As for Gildor, I see in him the culmination of everything that has befallen the Ñoldor - he's very reluctant to get involved in anything that is going to cause any more grief, and he really just wants to be left alone and allowed to go into the West. But that said, he does have a bit of good and nobility left within him - the reason he even goes so far as to give the Hobbits advice (when he really doesn't want to take them among them).
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04-12-2008, 12:43 PM | #22 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Not a problem for his dad Curufin sitting in Mandos, no. But for other Noldor who deemed themselves noble? Isn't it mean to forge the Rings and then leave the perfectly innocent other Elves and Men to clear up the mess?
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04-12-2008, 12:49 PM | #23 | ||||
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Elves are fading. It's the time for men (and hobbits) to solve their own problems. Quote:
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-12-2008, 01:23 PM | #24 | ||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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We are not told if it was only Glorfindel who shined in the Spirit World, or all the High (meaning Calaquendi) Elf Lords, but I think the latter. Firstly, when writing this, Tolkien simply re-utilized a name from the Silm drafts. In LOTR Glorfy is not told to be reincarnated. Tolkien invented this story about re-incarnation only later (when he thought of publishing Silm together with LOTR) and had to decide why the two Elves had the same name. Then there are quotes that seem to imply that G was not unique: Quote:
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I can’t see any commendable qualities in him at all. Seeming fair and acting foul. Quote:
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04-12-2008, 01:58 PM | #25 | ||||||
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-12-2008, 02:18 PM | #26 | |||
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Lorien? Never liked the White Witch, but I think there was no point to add a member to the Fellowship at this point. Hobbits had to go to Mordor alone, I am sure that was the Wise’s plan all along. Why would the selfish Galadriel send Lorien Elves to battle to Minas Tirith? Quote:
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04-12-2008, 02:30 PM | #27 | |
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04-12-2008, 02:38 PM | #28 | ||||
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04-12-2008, 02:39 PM | #29 | |||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I think (if I recall correctly) the nazgul pretty much lost track of the Hobbits, only found them again shortly at the ferry and then lost them again when they entered the Old Forest, but I daresay they would not have done so if they were tracking a bunch of Noldor as well as Hobbits. Also, Frodo was still holding up pretense of retiring to Crickhollow, that wouldn't have worked out grandly with a dozen of Elves going along. Quote:
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To say the Elves would have been enough kept the nazgul at bay and get the Hobbits into Rivendell without a scratch is IMO to greatly underestimate the Nine. (Really, Gordis, I'm surprised at you. ) And it's not as if Gildor did absolutely nothing. Okay, his advice was not the most practical. But he did take the Hobbits along for a bit, effectively obscuring the traces for the nazgul, and making it harder for the black riders to pick up their trail again. Gildor gave the Hobbits food and a safe place to sleep. It may not have been much, but it must have bought the Hobbits some time. Gildor may have thought it time enough. I don't know about you, but if I came across three grown-ups that were not only going the other way than me but were followed by something nasty that may be frightened by me for a short while, but could still be very dangerous, I wouldn't be volunteering to join them either. It is not my opinion that these were Gildor's reasons for not going along, but I do think the comparison of lost and helpless children is slanted. It makes every decision NOT to go along look like the cowardly an wrong one, which I think is not entirely applicable on this situation.
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04-12-2008, 03:36 PM | #30 | |||||
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04-12-2008, 05:32 PM | #31 | ||||||
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The fading Frodo when he was travelling with Glorfindel only noted that “a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil”. But later at the Ford he saw “a shining figure of white light”. Maybe Finrod and Co could mask their glow entirely? Quote:
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No one would throw an Elven ring in a gutter – especially if they had no idea of the ring’s origins and the real price they would have to pay. Greed has nothing to do with it. Quote:
Now, let us write a fanfic plot, taking into account the data from the Hunt for the Ring. Gildor takes the hobbits under his wing for the night. Khamul and his Dol Guldur buddy wait hiding nearby (as they actually did). In the morning the Elves depart east towards the Ferry. The nazgul search around, go to Maggot etc. and only by the afternoon (at the earliest) they discover that the Elves have taken the hobbits with them. Khamul and his buddy watch impotently how the Elves ferry the hobbits across. For two lesser nazgul it would be suicidal to attack the company of High Elves. In the night, the 4 nazgul (now 2+ the one by the bridge + the one on the main road) cross Baranduin by the bridge and likely ride to fetch the Witch-King (+2 others) who were half a day’s ride south from Bree - at Andrath. By the time they find him somewhere in the Barrows the hobbits and Elves would reach Bree and pick up Aragorn. So, if the hobbits are finally attacked, the situation would be much better for them than on Weathertop , because there would be a dozen High Elves in addition. Note on the track Bree-Rivendell it was not stealth that had saved the hobbits, for the nazgul did find them, but Frodo’s Barrow-blade, Aragorn torches and the name of Elbereth. The latter was especially ominous because it indicated Frodo’s association with the High Elves (RC). Wouldn’t the presence of High Elves in person be more efficient still? |
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04-12-2008, 06:04 PM | #32 | ||||
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04-12-2008, 06:31 PM | #33 |
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FWIW, Gordis's arguments regarding Gildor are beginning to persuade me. Based on what we can know of the situation, what the protaganists actually said, who likely knew what, and how regular folks (yes, I'm projecting here!) would likely act were an analogous situation to arise in our lives, while it was cool that Gildor helped as much as he did, seems to me it was a huge risk bordering on if not equaling recklessness to not have done more under the circumstances.
If it had been me meeting up with the hobbits in the woods, knowing what Gildor knew, I'd like to think I would have asked a few more questions and offered a bit more aid.
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04-12-2008, 06:51 PM | #34 | ||
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04-12-2008, 10:35 PM | #35 |
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If the third age Noldor viewed Men on par with ants and deer, they had fallen much farther than even I thought.
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04-13-2008, 12:57 AM | #36 |
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The point is that this wasn't Gildor's fight, and he didn't see himself as involved in the struggles of men (or hobbits).
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04-13-2008, 05:06 AM | #37 | ||||||
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I think this discussion is a lot on par with the one whether Elrond and Cirdan should have taken the Ring from Isildur on Mount Doom. I remember nearly every mooter said in a previous discussion they would have taken the ring from him. Sorry, but I don't believe that. But hindsight is 20/20. We know what happened to the Hobbits after they left Gildor, we judge Gildor accordingly. Gildor did NOT know what was going to happen, and he acted accordingly to what he did know or guessed. I think, given the situation as it was known then, pretty much none of us would have accompanied Frodo either.
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Although since the nazgul have been in the wraith world for so long, they should have adjusted to the warp better than the hobbits who only popped in an out on occasion. So that probably isn't a workable argument. So I'm more convinced of the nazgul being to focussed on the ringbearer to give much notice to the Elves (glowing or not) presence until he had to. Quote:
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04-13-2008, 08:46 AM | #38 | ||||||||||
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Frodo told Gildor they had to get out of the Shire - but would that save them? How could Gildor know that Aragorn was waiting for the hobbits in Bree? I think you all agree that, but for Aragorn, the hobbits would have hardly gotten beyond the Forsaken Inn. I don't believe Gildor didn't have a suspision about the nature of this "burden". He did guess - that's why he didn't ask for more info. Because otherwise, he would have to face it: he was sending the Ruling Ring straight to Sauron's hand, dooming his kingswoman Galadriel (of the house of Finarfin) AND her son-in law Elrond AND her only grandchildren AND the realms of Lorien and Rivendell AND also, (as far as he likely supposed) Cirdan and the Havens - summarily all the Elvish realms in Middle Earth. If the Ring were taken by Nazgul in late September, the Elves of Lorien and Rivendell likely wouldn't even have time to flee to Valinor, except Gildor himself - who was so close to the Havens. Quote:
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Snaga was not at the top of orkish social scale - but still he had his place in Mordor. Could an orc serve Gondor or Rohan if he so wished? - No, he would have been hunted down like an animal. In Mordor an orc, an Easterling and even a Numenorean could have got a nice place, if he earned it. Quote:
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04-13-2008, 08:57 AM | #39 |
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Gildor: "Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?’ answered Gildor. ‘Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you! Because I sure won't!"
Even the Hobbits themselves seemed enamored with Elves. They dropped the last sentence from most copies of the Red Book. Seriously, though, wonderful arguments on both sides here. While Tolkien surely didn't intend Gildor or any of the isolationist Elves to come across negatively, Gordis makes excellent and logical points that are difficult to deny.
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04-13-2008, 08:58 AM | #40 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Oh yes, equal rights... everybody a slave! You really are a nazgul, Gordis. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion at least once before so I'm not going to go into this again.
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