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08-07-2005, 04:49 PM | #21 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Elanor has posted the next chapters on schedule - but I'll leave this one out in the main directory for a few more days, looking for The Gaffer's final words and any discussion that follows shortly after.
Then of course - I hope the discussion on all of these threads continues further after they're placed into the Discussion Project Sub-Forum.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
08-08-2005, 09:21 AM | #22 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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08-08-2005, 10:26 AM | #23 |
Elf Lord
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Excellent point, I think you're right, about the pride thing certainly.
Perhaps also that even the Elves thought that Sauron had been defeated and would not rise again. PS - am back now so will be pushing this along a bit more over the next few days. Thanks for your patience. |
08-08-2005, 12:59 PM | #24 | |||
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08-11-2005, 03:57 AM | #25 |
Elf Lord
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Good stuff.
One could argue, then, that Boromir was right to be suspicious of the Elves, as they would act in their own interests first. So where does this leave the likes of Faramir, who are more sympathetic to the Elves, and are nostalgic for the old days? For there's no denying that Men too are "fading" in some sense; this is one of the clearest statements in this chapter, and it's definitely tied to their estrangement from Elves. Is it just that Numenor was an "Eden" for Men, when they were able to realise their full potential, and their fading occurs as the years lengthen? A final point for cunning linguists out there: is there any significance in the word Faramir uses for Lorien: "Laurelindorenan"? Is this how it is referred to in the annals of Minas Tirith, do you think? |
08-11-2005, 09:22 AM | #26 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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The Last alliance was 3000 years ago and Men became estranged from Elves very soon, perhaps starting with Isildur. Or it was the other way round, most likely. The Elves shut themselves in their enclaves, secured by their three Rings, and despised men. Was a man ever present at the White Counsil, the self-appointed ME government? Never, it was reserved for "the Wise". And speaking of the Men of Gondor. The nearest elven realm was Lorien. Has the Lady ever welcomed men there? No. It was shut much like Valinor from Numenor. Of course men resented it. Has Lorien ever sent help to Gondor since the Last Alliance? Never. And unlike Lorien, Gondor was in peril rather often. Sure by the time of LOTR nobody in Gondor expected help from Elves. And rightly. They got none at all. |
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09-01-2005, 04:15 PM | #27 | ||||
Elf Lord
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OK folks, I've been slacker than a jakey's drawers in posting the follow-up. I can only plead indifference
About the Chapter Title The Window on the West has a delicious triple meaning. Gondor harks back to the glory days on Numenor, three millenia past, and its citizens are intensely aware of the fading of their power over the centuries. Minas Tirith, and the dunedain of the South, retain a vestige of its nobility and give a glimpse of glories past. Secondly, the Window refers also to Faramir himself, whose Numenorean blood runs true and who shows himself to be wise, intelligent and, above all, untainted by the pride which mars so much of Middle Eart. Finally, Henneth Annun has a window, which looks west. Story Summary Sam wakens to find Frodo being questioned by Faramir in front of a host of Men. Faramir seems unhappy with Frodo’s account and uncertain what to do. Faramir questions him closely about “Isildur’s Bane” but Frodo responds proudly, suggesting that he would do well to leave him alone. Quote:
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“Though there is something strange about you, Frodo, an elvish air maybe. But more lies upon our words than I thought at first.” Once they are on their way to Henneth Annun, we learn more about Faramir’s interrogation strategy. He deliberately shied away from discussing Isildur’s Bane in public, another sign that Faramir is a lot more sensible than your usual Man. Indeed, it turns out he was tutored by Gandalf and knows or has guessed a lot concerning Isildur’s Bane. He has done some research of his own, it seems, and figured out that Isildur “took somewhat from the hand of the Unnamed.” His knowledge seems to be enough for him to realise that he would not gain from using such a weapon. Quote:
After a well-earned meal, talk turns to Frodo’s journey and the struggle of Minas Tirith. We learn more about Gondor, how it too has faded from its glory days, and about the further myths and history of Men: The Stewards, Numenoreans, and beyond to the Elder Days; and about their estrangement from the Elves. While waxing lyrical about Galadriel’s resemblance to a daffodil, Sam accidentally lets it slip that Frodo is carrying The One Ring, and that Boromir was after it. After a minor drama, it all turns out for the best, since Faramir at last understands the enormity of Frodo’s task. At last Frodo admits to Faramir his true quest, to destroy the Ring in Mount Doom. Faramir carries the exhausted hobbit to his bed and tucks him in. Sam passes a final comment: on how Faramir reminds him of Wizards: Quote:
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09-01-2005, 04:22 PM | #28 | |
Elf Lord
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And some further discussion points:
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2) What made up Faramir’s mind to trust Frodo? 3) Did the Numenoreans practice wizardry of some kind? We know that many of the “Black Numenoreans” became “sorcerors” and the like. (They may even have become Nazgul but I haven’t been following those threads recently.) My view is that it’s a “technology” question: the Numenoreans’ crafts so far exceeded anything practised in Middle Earth (before or since) that they were seen as “magical”. So.. 4) Why should this been associated with wizards, as opposed to, say, elves or even dwarves? |
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09-01-2005, 04:36 PM | #29 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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"Originally Posted by Faramir" - LOL!
Yes, we all think at times that those characters are real, but that's pushing it!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-01-2005, 04:47 PM | #30 |
Elf Lord
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Don't blame me, Beard ofPants started it in her chapter review.
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09-01-2005, 04:52 PM | #31 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I guess I missed it there - funny!
I always loved how JRRT talked about Faramir in Letters - Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-27-2005, 03:48 AM | #32 | ||
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Faramir also has to face a temptation, as everyone else that matters in this book - and he was not conquered. Quote:
I'm glad you took this chapter Gaffer.
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10-31-2005, 11:37 AM | #33 | |||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Hm, interesting take on handling the chapter discussion.
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But Frodo stands more in the central position and we read a great deal more of Frodo than the other eight companions. And by carrying the Ring for so long, I suppose Frodo changed most significantly of all. Quote:
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11-01-2005, 04:32 PM | #34 |
Elf Lord
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Hello and thanks for resurrecting. I might even post my Forbidden Pool summary...
On the character change thing, I see what you mean. They certainly change in that they do stuff they hadn't done before, and which they wouldn't have done before. However in some respects it's to do with how these changes are referenced in the narrative. There is no account of the internal goings-on. People doing surprising or different things are talked about in terms of people doing what's in their nature, rather than becoming as such. Aragorn is a particularly good example of this. "When have I ever [something about acting hastily] who have waited so long." etc. Also Legolas: he doesn't change so much as have his the sea-longing "awakened". Whereas with Frodo, we get a proper spiritual transformation, IMO. Anyhoo, LOVE the water curtain/barrier idea. Through a glass darkly and all that. Also liked your idea of how wizards were more associated with men, though IIRC, the kids of the shire had no idea what DALE meant on the bottom of their toys. Still, presumably Sam had got the story from Bilbo. |
11-01-2005, 05:50 PM | #35 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I've often wondered whether that was a strenght or a weakness of LoTR. One way the fact that you learn little of the actual thoughts and feelings of Aragorn, Gandalf and the like, makes one unable to create the same emotional rapport that one gets with the Hobbits. But in another way, for me, it creates more of an 'heroic' atmosphere which also adds to the story in its own way. Quote:
To be honest I can't entirely remember how the gifts at the party went so you're probably right.
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11-02-2005, 01:56 PM | #36 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, I agree with you about the lack of insight into what the characters are going through. Lots of people criticise LOTR on this basis, but I think it is a strength for this kind of book. It purports to be an account of a legend, which traditionally focus on deeds rather than emotions. It also helps to keep us readers in the perspective of the hobbits rather than flitting around from one view to the next. And finally, it means that you as the reader "fill in the gaps" with your own emotional intelligence. You build the characters in your own mind.
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