08-21-2005, 05:46 PM | #21 | |||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-21-2005, 06:41 PM | #22 | |||
Elf Lord
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It's injustice, Spock. It also means that Israel does have an important responsibility for these people that are crushed into the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Also, this history explains why Palestinians that resist the larger and more powerful Israel are often viewed by their people as heroes. It explains why Hamas has so much support from Palestinians, in part. They also support it because they believe it not nearly so corrupt as the PA, and I expect they're correct about that. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-22-2005, 04:05 AM | #23 | |
Elf Lord
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Hear hear!
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08-22-2005, 09:33 AM | #24 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-22-2005, 12:10 PM | #25 |
Elf Lord
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There would be no discussion here without Spock. He is boldly taking everyone on without any people to back him up, and I give him a thumbs up for that!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-22-2005, 12:38 PM | #26 |
Elf Lord
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I don't agree with you there (that there would be no discussion without Spock's contrary opinion)!
A contrary opinion is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for an interesting discussion. Often, a contrary opinion is merely a tactic to prevent constructive discussion and direct it in a particularl way. (I'm not saying that's what's going on in this instance, btw.) But the most interesting discussions I've seen and been involved in have been amongst people with broadly similar views. |
08-22-2005, 12:57 PM | #27 | |
Elf Lord
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When I'm talking with people face to face, my experience is the same. Discussions don't require disagreement- in fact, they're often better off without it. On Entmoot, though . . .
I don't know about you, but whenever I've seen a conversation shift from disagreement to agreement, everything often collapses into silliness. That's just been my experience here. Also, I still think it's brave of Spock to take the stance he is in the face of universal disagreement. I applaud that courage. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-22-2005, 01:08 PM | #28 |
Elf Lord
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Originally written on BBC News
Israel hails end of Gaza pullout The Netzarim settlers were tearful but defiant. The removal of 8,500 Israelis from 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip is effectively complete, Israel's army commander in the region has said. Just two Jewish families remained in Gaza, at the settlement of Netzarim, Major-General Dan Harel announced. After tearful prayers, Netzarim residents boarded buses vowing one day to return and rebuild their community. Stiff resistance is expected in the West Bank, when forced eviction starts at two settlements on Tuesday. "Except for two families now in the settlement of Netzarim, and who will be evacuated imminently, we have today completed the evacuation of the Israeli settler presence in the Gaza Strip," Maj-Gen Harel said on a tour of the settlement. Thousands of troops are now being redeployed to the West Bank for the final piece of the operation.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-22-2005 at 01:09 PM. |
08-22-2005, 01:42 PM | #29 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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.....and now for something completely different......
-M.P.- |
08-22-2005, 02:17 PM | #30 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*thinks* well, I guess I can kind of see what you mean - kind of like filling in different aspects of a picture?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-22-2005, 03:23 PM | #31 |
Elf Lord
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. . . and now the Gaza pull-out is concluded. I'm impressed that it was done completely without any clashes between soldiers and protesters. The only deaths throughout the operation were two Israeli terrorist attacks on Palestinian civilians. When all those thousands of protesters went into Gaza, I really thought it would require a pitched battle to get them out.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-22-2005, 04:46 PM | #32 | ||
Elven Warrior
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08-22-2005, 04:57 PM | #33 | |
Elf Lord
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Though those two Jewish terrorist attacks do have to be counted. There have been a few Palestinian deaths, during this pull-out.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-14-2005, 09:37 PM | #34 |
Elf Lord
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Peace due to Jewish pullouts?
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...lestinianhamas Yes. If you bought the line that Palestinians would "be nice", think again!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
09-14-2005, 10:38 PM | #35 | |
Elf Lord
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This article is rather discouraging though, I must say. I didn't know that Hamas was making such incendiary statements about Israel in recent days- I thought that they were being calmer to work with Mahmoud Abbas and the political system. So this is sad .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-14-2005 at 10:42 PM. |
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09-15-2005, 11:18 AM | #36 |
Elf Lord
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Palestinians aren't an ethnic group, are they? In fact, they didn't exist until conjured by the former regime in Jordan as a warfare tactic against Israel. And their "fellow" arabian descended rulers didn't think them worthy of giving land to in their day! All in all, you gotta credit more than Hamas with the intent to destroy Israel over the non-historical "Palestinian state."
Sauce for goose, sauce for gander. Unless you have an historically ignorant or uneducated audience. Which most of Western civilization qualifies for, I fear!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
09-15-2005, 11:26 AM | #37 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Indeed!
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
09-16-2005, 03:05 PM | #38 |
Elf Lord
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I'll get to your post, inked.
I'm just posting really quick to remark that I find Hamas claims that they "forced" Israel to withdraw from Gaza Strip very far fetched. I really think Israel left because they thought it was better for their security, and Gaza couldn't be maintained plausibly in the long run. The terrorist acts of Hamas and other groups in the area probably was a factor in their decision, but certainly Hamas in no way "forced" Israel to leave. I'm sure that many Palestinians really want to believe Hamas did, though, because they feel the need of a hero, of a force that can "stand up to the oppressor."
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
09-16-2005, 03:18 PM | #39 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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09-16-2005, 04:13 PM | #40 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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a voice of the intelligensia has spoken
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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