03-15-2007, 11:24 AM | #21 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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03-15-2007, 11:58 AM | #22 |
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I agree!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-15-2007, 05:21 PM | #23 | |
Elven Warrior
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03-16-2007, 04:54 AM | #24 |
Elf Lord
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I think the point about Feanor is figurative. He is the archetypical impassioned visionary genius.
He learned a lot from Melkor, yet saw through him; in some ways, he saw him more clearly even than Manwe, who of course set him free. |
03-16-2007, 07:54 AM | #25 | ||||||
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03-16-2007, 08:06 AM | #26 |
Elf Lord
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Fair point, I'd forgotten that Feanor actually rejected Melkor's advances.
However, surely your quote from Osanwe-kenta, whatever that is, works both ways. Manwe frees Melkor, he's doing the will of Eru. Feanor pursues Melkor and swears undying vengeance, Feanor is mad. How are we to know the difference? Is not Feanor doing the will of Eru? |
03-16-2007, 09:45 AM | #27 | |
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03-16-2007, 09:50 AM | #28 | |
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So - Eru was able to take the wrong that Feanor would do, and turn it to good - but Feanor doing that wrong was not part of His original scheme.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 03-16-2007 at 09:52 AM. |
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03-16-2007, 12:36 PM | #29 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I think it was all intended. The existence of the music itself points to a very deterministic world, at least as far as Eru is concerned. I can't remember "free will" ever being implied.
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03-16-2007, 12:50 PM | #30 | |
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03-16-2007, 01:45 PM | #31 | |||
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I was more than just humans who specifically had free will:
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09-09-2007, 03:27 AM | #32 |
Hobbit
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In my opinion, the breaking of the oath would have redeemed it. The very fact that they swore to Eru, that Feanor was arrogant enough to not trust the Valar and demand witness of Iluvatar, was the true sin the Feanorians commited. They literally and truly took the Lord's name in vain.
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09-16-2007, 08:43 PM | #33 |
Elven Warrior
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I can't believe this thread is still going!
I still can't help but feel that if a person - say an elf - takes the Lord's name in vain in a way that, to fulfill the oath, requires the person to do even worse things (like murder), wouldn't the reasonable and ethical response be to cut your losses for the oath-taking by accepting the consequences/punishment for not fulfilling as opposed to making things much worse for yourself in Eru's eyes by compounding the evil? If there's a religion on the earth that answers this question "no" I'm not sure I know of it. If there's a religion on the earth that doesn't appoint representatives or intermediaries that can absolve the oath I don't know of it either. Certainly, in Tolkien's own religion, the Pope would be so authorized (i.e., to absolve or forgive an act of taking the Lord's name in vain/voiding a resulting oath, right? Seems to me the responses might or should have been similar in ME. |
09-17-2007, 06:23 AM | #34 |
Enting
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I think they were still bound to their oath.
First, by the same feelings of lust, arrogance and mistrust which made them swear it in the first place. The elves did not cool down with the centuries (maybe after a few millenia they would). In my opinion they still had the same strong feelings. And second, by the doom of Mandos which hardened their hearts to all the suffering they caused and made them pursue the oath to its fulfillment ["Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue"].
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09-18-2007, 05:23 AM | #35 |
Elven Warrior
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Upon further consideration of everything posted to date, I think you nail it, ecthelion, thanks for your response.
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