drug references - Page 2

Pailan · 12-28-2001, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Billadillo
[B

I totally agree with you there. As I said earlier, it's obvious that Tolkien never intended any drug references in his work. That is a non-issue.

At question here is the intent of the film makers. It is ultimately up to the viewer to interpret what they see, but I still think the film makers had a responsibility to tell the story in such a way that modern cultural context did not misconstrue any of Tolkien's intentions.

With the loads of money the film industry spends on market research, you can't tell me they were unaware that comments like "Shire weed is the best" (while taking a long draw at his pipe) and "your love of the Halflings leaf has clouded your mind" (um...cotton brain, anyone?) would be interpreted by many as possible drug references.

[/B]

I think where we are going in this discussion is what makes art? And often great art brings with it multiple layers of possible meanings. While the "yeah dude" crowd may see such references to Long bottom leaf = pot, others may see it as nicotine addiction, while learned Tolkien scholars view it as part of the culture of Middle Earth. Also isn't quite possible that pipe weed is nothing more than Tolkien inserting a part of himself into the story? On the back covers of my first copy of the triology there is a picture of ol' JRR and he is smoking a pipe.

When coming into a conact with a great piece of art we view it through what we bring with us from our own expirences. And I submit that both the books and movie(s) are great works of art and while the entertain us they also reveal something of ourselves as well. Which is why I so enjoy entmoot

Pailan

bropous · 12-29-2001, 01:09 PM

Excellent, excellent points, dear Pailan. May the hair on your toes never fall out!

Pailan · 12-29-2001, 03:10 PM

Having just brushed my toes I would like to add this to the pipe weed discussion.

I remember back to those crazy high school daze when all the Dead Heads were into LOTR. They loved all the pipe weed and mushroom refrences because to them it reflected their reality. So if each generation has it's own cultural lens to read LOTR by then what are the opinions out there today?

I imagine PJ was very aware of this point of view when he shot those scenes. Was that a tip o' the hat to Tolkien or the 1960s? or both?

Pailan

bropous · 12-29-2001, 04:41 PM

I'm not actually quite sure whether Mr. Jackson thought about this like Americans, Pailan. Is it possible there may be a "cultural misstep" as Mr. Jackson is a New Zealander? Maybe down there, marijuana isn't called "weed". I realize this might be a stretch, but I am not really convinced that Mr. Jackson intended the "yeah man" crowd to get a thrill out of Gandalf blowing smoke-ships.

Just this fellow hobbit's humble opinion.

Prince Faramir · 12-29-2001, 05:48 PM

"I can't find where I read this, but the pipe-weed smoked by hobbits is probably lacking in those nasty chemicals which cause addiction and disease in humans today. The art of smoking as found in Middle Earth near the end of the Second Age was a very different thing from the addiction to cigarettes today."

I am afraid the sympal act of breathing in smoke can cause cancer of the throat. Hence why Cannabis smokers can contract cancer, even when the smoke it purely from the leaf.........

Michael martinez [sp?] is right, smoking is a horrible horrible theing and should have been toned down in the film. Its place is need, the amount of it in the film is dubious.......

orald · 12-29-2001, 10:23 PM

I think it was put in the movie,to let the audience decide,if you wish it to be a drug reference,then so be it.As far as Tolkien's interpretation,who cares,let them read the book to clarify what he was refering to.His interpretation was altered several times,as far as the story line goes.but im sure you meant to clear Tolkien from any illegal references,but who cares,I dont need the long arm of the law injected into my entertainment.I dont smoke pot,but thats a personal choice,but I dont believe theres enough pot smoked in this world.

Those who dance, are considered insane,by those who can't hear the music.

Friend · 12-30-2001, 05:36 AM

When I saw the movie today there was a reaction to those comments so some people who have not read the books might understand those comments in the context of today's culture.

bropous · 12-31-2001, 11:50 AM

But, my friends, look at HOW they are smoking Longbottom Leaf!

Do they take great big hits deep into their lungs, holding it in, straining to keep a lungful in til it is absorbed? Nope.

ALL of the characters sit there, PUFFING it only. Not drawing in great big hits, like pot smokers. Just puffing it, blowing smoke rings or letting the smoke wreathe carelessly around their heads. This doesn't seem to be consistent with someone trying to intimate they were smoking even a distant relative of cannabis sativa or cannabis indica.

It is more consistent with [tobacco] pipe puffing, to me. Longbottom Leaf, Old Toby, Southern Star, it is only tobacco. I feel the filmmakers were saying this, too.

Mushrooms previously addressed.

Pailan · 12-31-2001, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
Is it possible there may be a "cultural misstep" as Mr. Jackson is a New Zealander? Maybe down there, marijuana isn't called "weed". I realize this might be a stretch, but I am not really convinced that Mr. Jackson intended the "yeah man" crowd to get a thrill out of Gandalf blowing smoke-ships.

Yes, it is quite possible that marijuana is called something else besides "weed" in New Zealand, just as it is called something else by every other culture that uses it. I seem to remember someone who hailed from there and called it "wog hemp." Any 'Zealanders on this board know the answer? But as far as Long Bottom leaf is concerned... well PJ could have had a ball with the brand name.

Personally, I really enjoyed the smoke ring duel as the entertaining piece of fun that it is, and I believe was meant to be.

Pailan

bropous · 12-31-2001, 12:34 PM

Agreed wholeheartedly, my fellow hobbit!

Pailan · 12-31-2001, 01:17 PM

I popped over to the Encylopeida of Arda and grabbed this:

"Longbottom entered history in about III 2670 (1070 by the Shire-reckoning), when a certain Tobold Hornblower introduced a new herb there. The valley's sheltered aspect, and the relatively warm climate of the Southfarthing, made the region around Longbottom ideal for growing this new plant, pipe-weed, which rapidly became the centre of a thriving industry. Longbottom Leaf remained one of the most famous varieties of the weed."

The fine folks over at EA hedge their bets a bit by saying it is either tobbacco or a closely related herb. No pot references whatsoever.

Pailan

bropous · 01-01-2002, 01:25 PM

Precisely. Tolkien himself identifies the pipe-weed as possibly a variety of "Nicotiana".

Arwenfan · 01-01-2002, 04:58 PM

I'd just like to say to Renille, that people who take illicit substances, are as noble and good as people who don't. Also, everyone who takes drugs (even on a regular basis) is not a druggie.

Renille · 01-01-2002, 06:23 PM

I know that, I guess I just wasn't thinking of that particular paradigm when writing my post. I give you full permission to slap me.

No, really, I'm sorry if that post offended you. It didn't mean to.

Kevin McIntyre · 01-02-2002, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
I agree with a previous post. Longbottom Leaf and mushrooms are dealt with in the forewords of FOTR. Neither are drug references. Longbottom Leaf is tobacco, and the mushrooms are the edible, non-psychoative variety.

Now, did Saruman smoke Longbottom Leaf? I don't think so, from Merry and Pippin's opinions. They thought the leaf was at Isengard to please Saruman's higher lieutenants. I imagine Saruman also bought up tremendous amounts of the 1419 vintage to create a shortage in the Shire. Anything to mess up happiness in the Shire, eh wizard?

Agreed. Tolkien wouldn't touch a drug reference with a ninety-foot pole.

Saruman did indeed smoke leaf. He gets some from Merry on the return journey (Many Partings).

bropous · 01-02-2002, 09:38 PM

Ah. Correct. Good call again, most excellent hobbit!

Geez, Saruman sure turned into one major Grade-A arsehole, didn't he? What a petty, mean spirit for a Maiar! Harrumph!

Pailan · 01-03-2002, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
I'm not actually quite sure whether Mr. Jackson thought about this like Americans, Pailan. ... but I am not really convinced that Mr. Jackson intended the "yeah man" crowd to get a thrill out of Gandalf blowing smoke-ships.

I watched the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, last night. It was a rerun of the Elijah Wood interview. Having been half asleep the first time it was run I paid close attenion this time. And with a doubt Elijah Wood (yes he's from the USA) was playing up the Hobbits love of both pipe weed and mushrooms in the recreational "yeah dude" sort of way. So does this smoking "pipe" lead to PJ himself? I think yes. I am beginning to lean towards the fact that some of the weed refrences are indeed a tip o' the hat to counter cultrual mores. And this is with out a doubt a modern perspective and not Tolkien inspired.

Now here's a question to ponder. When Gandalf comes back as The White Rider in TT, will he still smoke the halflings' weed? I am not sure if he does in the books and the movie's version is still eleven months away....

bropous · 01-03-2002, 12:12 PM

You know, Pailan, I saw that interview on "the Daily Show" as well, and I do believe that Elijah Wood was more playing to that particular audience in the interview than reflecting any attitudes by Mr. Jackson. But then again, that's just my Entigish take on it. I could be wrong.

As for Gandalf the White smoking pipeweed, in scouring my memory, I don't recall him doing so, but in leafing through my well-thumbed copies of The Two Towers and The Return of the King, I found that, when they finally reached the Prancing Pony in Bree on the way back from Minas Tirith, Gandalf says to Barliman:

"Come, sit down! And if you have any pipe-weed, we'll bless you."

Now, Tolkien does not say that Gandalf then smokes any of it. I tend to believe that he did. Even if it was only Southlinch!

andustar · 01-03-2002, 12:22 PM

this was posted so long ago and the discussion has moved... it hardly seems worth writing this but what the heck.

by Bropus near the beginning of the thread:

"Now, did Saruman smoke Longbottom Leaf? I don't think so, from Merry and Pippin's opinions. They thought the leaf was at Isengard to please Saruman's higher lieutenants. I imagine Saruman also bought up tremendous amounts of the 1419 vintage to create a shortage in the Shire. Anything to mess up happiness in the Shire, eh wizard? "

actually ONLY Saruman himself smoked it

(Merry says, of the Pipeweed he found at Orthanc, "For Saruman's private use, I fancy") and if you've read UU (Unfinished Tales) there's a whole bit there about the wizards, which I found very interesting.

Saruman ridiculed Gandalf in public (well, OK, in the White Council meetings!) about him permantly smoking the stuff. Whenever Saruman would try to get Gandalf angry, Gandalf wouldn't rise to the bait and at one point blew smoke rings at him

Saruman was curious about the habit and tried it himself, getting Longbottom Leaf out of the Shire for a LONG time before the War of the Ring. He was actually... I hesitate to use the word "addicted" in this thread... but anyway, Gandalf found out, laughed about it in private but decided not to humiliate Saruman in public (Saruman had been ridiculing EVERYTHING Gandalf said and did in the meetings, imagine what would happen if people found out he had actually been copying the Gandalf's habits which he pretended to despise in private!) so said nothing.

there's A LOT and I mean A LOT more to it than that, especially about Saruman's treachery and what he thought of Gandalf in the book. Read it if you can get your hands on it. But it just shows you that Saruman already had ties with the Shire... hey, a new thought, maybe Elrond knew and that's another reason why he was so set on sending Merry and Pippin back after the Council? hmmm.....

er OK so I got a little off-topic... what of it?

bropous · 01-03-2002, 12:48 PM

Thanks for the clarification, andustar. I really MUST read "Unfinished Tales". Good call!

12-29-2001, 01:09 PM	#22
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Excellent, excellent points, dear Pailan. May the hair on your toes never fall out! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

12-29-2001, 04:41 PM	#24
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I'm not actually quite sure whether Mr. Jackson thought about this like Americans, Pailan. Is it possible there may be a "cultural misstep" as Mr. Jackson is a New Zealander? Maybe down there, marijuana isn't called "weed". I realize this might be a stretch, but I am not really convinced that Mr. Jackson intended the "yeah man" crowd to get a thrill out of Gandalf blowing smoke-ships. Just this fellow hobbit's humble opinion. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

12-29-2001, 05:48 PM	#25
Prince Faramir Enting Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: cardiff, Britain Posts: 77	not true "I can't find where I read this, but the pipe-weed smoked by hobbits is probably lacking in those nasty chemicals which cause addiction and disease in humans today. The art of smoking as found in Middle Earth near the end of the Second Age was a very different thing from the addiction to cigarettes today." I am afraid the sympal act of breathing in smoke can cause cancer of the throat. Hence why Cannabis smokers can contract cancer, even when the smoke it purely from the leaf......... Michael martinez [sp?] is right, smoking is a horrible horrible theing and should have been toned down in the film. Its place is need, the amount of it in the film is dubious....... __________________ "I'd Rather Be a No-one Than Someone With No-one"

12-31-2001, 11:50 AM	#28
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	But, my friends, look at HOW they are smoking Longbottom Leaf! Do they take great big hits deep into their lungs, holding it in, straining to keep a lungful in til it is absorbed? Nope. ALL of the characters sit there, PUFFING it only. Not drawing in great big hits, like pot smokers. Just puffing it, blowing smoke rings or letting the smoke wreathe carelessly around their heads. This doesn't seem to be consistent with someone trying to intimate they were smoking even a distant relative of cannabis sativa or cannabis indica. It is more consistent with [tobacco] pipe puffing, to me. Longbottom Leaf, Old Toby, Southern Star, it is only tobacco. I feel the filmmakers were saying this, too. Mushrooms previously addressed. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

12-31-2001, 12:34 PM	#30
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Agreed wholeheartedly, my fellow hobbit! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

12-29-2001, 03:10 PM	#23
Pailan Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aisle 12, seat#2 Posts: 449	Having just brushed my toes I would like to add this to the pipe weed discussion. I remember back to those crazy high school daze when all the Dead Heads were into LOTR. They loved all the pipe weed and mushroom refrences because to them it reflected their reality. So if each generation has it's own cultural lens to read LOTR by then what are the opinions out there today? I imagine PJ was very aware of this point of view when he shot those scenes. Was that a tip o' the hat to Tolkien or the 1960s? or both? Pailan

12-29-2001, 10:23 PM	#26
orald Enting Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 2 blocks from Minas Tirith Posts: 59	I think it was put in the movie,to let the audience decide,if you wish it to be a drug reference,then so be it.As far as Tolkien's interpretation,who cares,let them read the book to clarify what he was refering to.His interpretation was altered several times,as far as the story line goes.but im sure you meant to clear Tolkien from any illegal references,but who cares,I dont need the long arm of the law injected into my entertainment.I dont smoke pot,but thats a personal choice,but I dont believe theres enough pot smoked in this world. Those who dance, are considered insane,by those who can't hear the music.

12-30-2001, 05:36 AM	#27
Friend Sapling Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 1	When I saw the movie today there was a reaction to those comments so some people who have not read the books might understand those comments in the context of today's culture.

12-31-2001, 01:17 PM	#31
Pailan Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aisle 12, seat#2 Posts: 449	I popped over to the Encylopeida of Arda and grabbed this: "Longbottom entered history in about III 2670 (1070 by the Shire-reckoning), when a certain Tobold Hornblower introduced a new herb there. The valley's sheltered aspect, and the relatively warm climate of the Southfarthing, made the region around Longbottom ideal for growing this new plant, pipe-weed, which rapidly became the centre of a thriving industry. Longbottom Leaf remained one of the most famous varieties of the weed." The fine folks over at EA hedge their bets a bit by saying it is either tobbacco or a closely related herb. No pot references whatsoever. Pailan

01-01-2002, 01:25 PM	#32
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Precisely. Tolkien himself identifies the pipe-weed as possibly a variety of "Nicotiana". __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-01-2002, 04:58 PM	#33
Arwenfan Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 5	Re: Renille's comment I'd just like to say to Renille, that people who take illicit substances, are as noble and good as people who don't. Also, everyone who takes drugs (even on a regular basis) is not a druggie.

01-01-2002, 06:23 PM	#34
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	I know that, I guess I just wasn't thinking of that particular paradigm when writing my post. I give you full permission to slap me. No, really, I'm sorry if that post offended you. It didn't mean to. __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

01-02-2002, 09:38 PM	#36
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Ah. Correct. Good call again, most excellent hobbit! Geez, Saruman sure turned into one major Grade-A arsehole, didn't he? What a petty, mean spirit for a Maiar! Harrumph! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-03-2002, 12:12 PM	#38
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	You know, Pailan, I saw that interview on "the Daily Show" as well, and I do believe that Elijah Wood was more playing to that particular audience in the interview than reflecting any attitudes by Mr. Jackson. But then again, that's just my Entigish take on it. I could be wrong. As for Gandalf the White smoking pipeweed, in scouring my memory, I don't recall him doing so, but in leafing through my well-thumbed copies of The Two Towers and The Return of the King, I found that, when they finally reached the Prancing Pony in Bree on the way back from Minas Tirith, Gandalf says to Barliman: "Come, sit down! And if you have any pipe-weed, we'll bless you." Now, Tolkien does not say that Gandalf then smokes any of it. I tend to believe that he did. Even if it was only Southlinch! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-03-2002, 12:22 PM	#39
andustar Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: London Posts: 217	this was posted so long ago and the discussion has moved... it hardly seems worth writing this but what the heck. by Bropus near the beginning of the thread: "Now, did Saruman smoke Longbottom Leaf? I don't think so, from Merry and Pippin's opinions. They thought the leaf was at Isengard to please Saruman's higher lieutenants. I imagine Saruman also bought up tremendous amounts of the 1419 vintage to create a shortage in the Shire. Anything to mess up happiness in the Shire, eh wizard? " actually ONLY Saruman himself smoked it (Merry says, of the Pipeweed he found at Orthanc, "For Saruman's private use, I fancy") and if you've read UU (Unfinished Tales) there's a whole bit there about the wizards, which I found very interesting. Saruman ridiculed Gandalf in public (well, OK, in the White Council meetings!) about him permantly smoking the stuff. Whenever Saruman would try to get Gandalf angry, Gandalf wouldn't rise to the bait and at one point blew smoke rings at him Saruman was curious about the habit and tried it himself, getting Longbottom Leaf out of the Shire for a LONG time before the War of the Ring. He was actually... I hesitate to use the word "addicted" in this thread... but anyway, Gandalf found out, laughed about it in private but decided not to humiliate Saruman in public (Saruman had been ridiculing EVERYTHING Gandalf said and did in the meetings, imagine what would happen if people found out he had actually been copying the Gandalf's habits which he pretended to despise in private!) so said nothing. there's A LOT and I mean A LOT more to it than that, especially about Saruman's treachery and what he thought of Gandalf in the book. Read it if you can get your hands on it. But it just shows you that Saruman already had ties with the Shire... hey, a new thought, maybe Elrond knew and that's another reason why he was so set on sending Merry and Pippin back after the Council? hmmm..... er OK so I got a little off-topic... what of it? __________________ ~ andustar/shani

01-03-2002, 12:48 PM	#40
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Thanks for the clarification, andustar. I really MUST read "Unfinished Tales". Good call! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
The Silmarillion Ch 11: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor	Maedhros	The Silmarillion Project	20	10-24-2018 03:41 PM
Gays, lesbians, bisexuals	Nurvingiel	General Messages	988	02-06-2006 01:33 PM
World Politics	Last Child of Ungoliant	General Messages	141	06-28-2005 06:51 AM