11-23-2005, 08:32 AM | #21 |
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I also think we don't know how scared Aragorn's Dunedain companions may have been - they didn't say. Gimli related his fear to the hobbits, so they faithfully recorded it in their account of things.
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11-23-2005, 09:04 AM | #22 | |
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what was edited out here for history? the heirs of Valandil, crawling on all fours in fear? this of course leads to other questions .. if we take the red book as the account as passed on to the hobbits largely ... how objective a tale of the war of the ring can it be? could not then, nazgul, say, have been largely mis-represented? Were the exploits of merry and pippin given undue prominence? |
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11-23-2005, 09:09 AM | #23 | ||
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11-24-2005, 06:33 PM | #24 | ||
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and after all, we can't expect them to live up to valandil's levels! Nurv: Quote:
In a way the connection with earth and solid uncanny things that is the dwarven world does play well here, i feel, but what of legolas? what was he doing? no one seems to want to address this... |
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11-24-2005, 07:30 PM | #25 | ||||
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I imagine Legolas was duly scared. Aren't Elves sensitive to this sort of thing? Shades of Men and such. Quote:
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11-24-2005, 08:02 PM | #26 |
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NURV!!!
what are you suggesting? that actually frodo got no further than the old forest? .. that it was in fact fatty bolger that bravely took up the baton from there? well, they say history is written by the victors ... or those with the most time to write ... nay, regarding legolas, by even frodo's accounts .. legolas was unmoved and felt not the fear at all .. little did he heed them, pale and insignificant he thought them .... and whilst yes, a small case may be made for the pride of gimli wanting no help, maybe at first, he soon lost all pride and almost despaired .... i cannot see for a momment that he would not have welcomed any help ..esp from legolas at this point. just what was legolas doing here, marching along whistling looking neither left nor right, and concentrating hard on ignoring everything around him? Nay, Nurv ... what is truly going on here? |
11-25-2005, 03:57 AM | #27 | |
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11-26-2005, 05:48 PM | #28 | |
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But history is written by the victors... |
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11-28-2005, 10:04 PM | #29 |
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well, in one very real sense you are right CS ... effectively the ring was destroyed by the nazgul- if we accept the theory they wanted it to be destroyed and never truly sought to carry out their master's wishes ...
Serenoli ... maybe not so funny .... arch theorist Nurv may have hit on something here .... just what editorial credentials are we given for frodo?? what references? So ... The Palantir and the eye of sauron .... the will and strength of Aragorn .... did he get lucky? How much was it sheer belief in his ancestral rights that enabled him so quickly to master the stone? Was Sauron, shocked and knocked off guard? would he be able to do it a second time (or at least so quickly??) what do you think? |
11-29-2005, 12:26 AM | #30 | ||
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My comment about Frodo was just to say I doubt he played up the significance of Merry and Pippin's roles. I think they did contribute that much.
I forgot the quote about Legolas not being afraid.
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11-29-2005, 04:23 PM | #31 | ||
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11-30-2005, 11:37 AM | #32 |
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Heh. Also, they were posh history-writers: "alone with his servant" indeed. So not alone, then.
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11-30-2005, 08:48 PM | #33 | |
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funny how you can read things two ways ... right .. next discussion point: the dead ... the oath breakers ... how exactly did they fight? |
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12-01-2005, 01:09 AM | #34 | |
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12-01-2005, 05:23 AM | #35 |
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I don't think they had any material bodies, they were not like nazgul: they had no rings. They were ghosts, living entirely in the Spirit World
So they could hardly interact physically with the World of Light. Yes, Serenoli is right, they must have scared everybody, that is all. But there is a strange thing, how come Sauron the Necromancer has not taken such an army of ghosts "under his wing"? Probably he just had no time, as he started the war earlier than planned? |
12-01-2005, 01:48 PM | #36 |
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What power would Sauron have over the Dead?
Isildur invoked a curse on the people of Whereveritwas, which presumably prevented them from departing to wherever it is that Men's spirits go when they die. So, these were no ordinary Dead. Perhaps a more relevant question would be how Isildur managed to curse them in this way and how Eru tolerated/implemented it. (One has to assume there was no Valar involved as they were in the dark about the fate of Men as well.) |
12-01-2005, 02:57 PM | #37 | |
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Sauron was known as a Necromancer, so the spirits of the dead were his speciality, so to say.
He has played tricks with spirits of Men in the First Age (Gollim and his wife); his "pupil" the Witch-King was the master of the Barrow-wights, so I don't see why he couldn't "lay his hands" on the spirits of the Men of Dunharrow. Here is a passage from "Laws and Customs of the Eldar". It speaks of Elvish fëar, but it shows that Morgoth and Sauron were ever the hunters for disembodied souls. Quote:
How Isildur managed to curse them we shall never know. I think, he was a powerful sorcerer in his own right. Isildur was too interested in magic for his own good. All his life he dealt with magical objects. While in Numenor, he meddled with the White Tree, then he brought a black STONE to Erech, all the way from the drowning Numenor! What the hell did he need it for, if not for magic? It is exactly at this stone that he cursed the whole people to wander after death, withholding the Gift of Men from them, the thing that even Mandos himself ever refused to do. And, finally, the Ring... No, Isildur was much more controversial figure that the chronicles, revised by his relatives, let us to assume. |
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12-01-2005, 03:02 PM | #38 | |
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12-01-2005, 07:17 PM | #39 | |||||
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Gordis:
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well, somehow he did! ... i'm sure Gordis will discuss this better than i can though .... but more importantly why was it 'tolerated' if that is quite the right question ... by which i mean how was this moral, to curse both the king and his warriors yet also curse the women and innocent children ... to curse a whole society, and worse condemn even the innocent amongst them to many many untold years of doom? surely, the valar were adrift from the fate of middle earth largely? Gordis: Quote:
is this tolikien on the one hand saying the noble line of men .. but men still ..arrogant in the lust for (or of) power? (ref to mandos) But the stone of erech - very interesting ..what do we all think it actually was and signified?? ...where's Olmer??? Telcontar Dunedain: Quote:
what do you think TD? Last edited by Butterbeer : 12-01-2005 at 07:38 PM. |
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12-01-2005, 07:49 PM | #40 | |
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