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12-06-2007, 05:14 AM | #21 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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additional questions
I have just re-read the thread and I think it strange that we haven't discussed Sauron's terms. For me they are most puzzling.
1. Why would Sauron decide to propose terms at all - if he hoped to crush the Gondorians like fleas? Was he so shaken by the Pelennor defeat? Why give the Gondorians time to regroup and Aragorn or Gandalf time to master the Ring? 2. Why were the terms not-too-bad - almost acceptable I would say? 3. And what would Sauron do if the West accepted the terms? 4. Did Sauron indeed plan to give Isengard to the Mouth? And what about Saruman? |
12-06-2007, 08:25 AM | #22 | ||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Oooh, more questions.
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I think he had more than enough troops ready behind the Black Gate to wipe out the entire Gondorean and Rohirrim army and then some. I'm pretty sure he knew this. So time to regroup and set up their army was essentially worthless for the Gondoreans. Sauron could crush them anytime, but first he wanted to demoralise them some more. And hey, if they accepted it, he had access to the West. He could see and try his old tricks again that worked so well in Númenor. Quote:
All the lands between the Misty Mountains and the river had to pay Mordor (and you can bet he'd ask a lot) and were forbidden to ever bear weapons. And since he would have moved his border right up to Minas Tirith, he could over-run the country within days. He also would claim Isengard with all its secrets and lore and beside that, it would put him in control of an important road between Rohan and Gondor and the lands behind the Mist Mountains. Not to mention that the Mouth of Sauron, if he was placed there, would set out pretty quick to carve himself a generously large country. It would basically give Sauron free range and access to half the western lands of Middle-earth. Hardly acceptable terms. Quote:
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12-07-2007, 04:27 AM | #23 | |||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Moreover, I believe it is not true: Sauron was not mindlessly sadistic. Yes he was very cruel, but above all RATIONAL. He calculated everything to a nicety. If he did something, it was on purpose and was many-many-layered. After the defeat of Pelennor, Sauron must have done some serious thinking. He could see that Fate (or the meddling Higher Powers) had favored his enemies quite shamelessly. Please, calculate the probability of the Witch King being confronted on the battlefield by a woman in disguise + a halfling + a Barrow blade. The probability of such event would be about 0.00000something. And the probability of both the Rohirrim and the men from the south-west Gondor coming to the rescue in time and quite unlooked-for? And the Dead of Dunharrow aiding Aragorn?And the West wind blowing away the pall of Darkness in the nick of time and speeding Aragorn's ships up the Anduin? The latter especially would sound ominous for Sauron: he could have felt a direct intervention of Manwe here, (whether he were correct or not). So what Sauron saw facing him was the new wannabe Ringlord backed by the Powers and Fate, maybe Eru - and Sauron was afraid. That's why he didn't do the only thing that might have saved him - he didn't send all his armies on Minas Tirith at once, while the armies of the West were depleted, and the Gates of the City in shambles. Instead, he sat brooding in Mordor and watched the progress of Aragorn's army to the Black Gate. Yes, Sauron took them quite seriously, I believe, otherwise he wouldn't have summoned all the remaining nazgul to Morannon, even Khamul, who would have been so much more needed at the head of the Northern Army, beseiging Erebor. So, I think, Sauron sent out the Mouth just to better asses the situation - he needed to know if it were Aragorn who had the Ring or it was Gandalf. The Mouth deliberately provoked both Aragorn and Gandalf - to see their reaction. Quote:
If they had accepted, he would know that either they were utterly weak and had no hope or they wished desperately for more time - then he would have crushed them without second thought: both Gandalf and Aragorn and maybe other high lords of Gondor - just in case. Quote:
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12-07-2007, 06:54 AM | #24 | ||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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"If the Dark Lord knows so much as you say, Mithrandir, will he not rather smile than fear, and with his little finger crush us like a fly that tries to sting him?" "No, he will try to trap the fly and take the sting", said Gandalf. I never said Sauron was mindlessly sadistic. I do think he was a very calculating and rational being. But none of that contradicts the idea that he would like to toy and with his enemies first. Quote:
Eowyn was there because like Theoden, Wormtongue had also poisoned her mind, making her think there was no glory left in Rohan, and forcing her to seek it in death on a battlefield elsewhere. We knew the Witch-King could not be bested by any Man, but that is a long away from saying that the Powers knew exactly who could best him and made it sure. You can speculate about this, but I see little evidence for it. Merry's presence is mainly because of Gandalf who reasoned with Elrond to sent them both along. You could say Gandalf was inspired by the Powers for that, but I think Gandalf was pretty much left to his own devices. The Powers would not have sent the wizards if they intended some other form of interventions. They could have easily stopped the failures of the other wizards then. I can see no intervention from the far West in the coming of the Rohirrim. And basically Aragorn taking the Path of the Dead was on biding of Galadriel. One can argue here that it was Galadriel's own foresight to suggest it, or prompting from the West. I'll grant this. But if the dead had not been loyal to Sauron in the past, they wouldn't have been there now to aid Aragorn. While keeping the army Isildur needed in the Last Alliance from him, Sauron accidentally made it possible for a strong army to be available against him at a moment he expected it not. The fact that Aragorn arrived on time, was pretty much because he kept looking in the palantir and knew when he had to arrive. And story-wise one has to admit, it is much more dramatic the way it happened. So I'd name only the wind as direct show of support from the West. Hardly shamelessly. There's a theme visible in Tolkien's work, where evil will eventually be wrought to do some good. I'd say this is very much it. Sauron's own work was eventually turned against him, in this chapter and in others. I don't think the Powers can be implicated therein, I'd say this is something that was fixed in the Songs of the Ainur long before they came down to Arda. Quote:
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12-07-2007, 03:54 PM | #25 | |
Elven Warrior
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Concerning Sauron's fears about his enemies in Middle Earth receiving help from higher up, I agree with Gordis. We have to remember, when considering Sauron's actions (and I would guess this applies when looking at any character's actions) that his own beliefs or suspicions matter far more than the actual truth. Maybe Eru and the Valar had taken a hand and maybe they hadn't, but it is very likely that Sauron believed that they had, given how unlikely his defeat on the Pelanor was and the hard-to-miss symbolic western wind.
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About the terms, I would guess that they were pretty much meaningless, beyond Sauron toying with his enemies. Sauron could probably be expected to not stick to an agreement. The westerners could be expected not to accept any terms (except Sauron's surrender) given the situation. They had just won a major battle and marched several days (often proclaiming on the way that they were taking back their land) to Sauron's gates, where they demanded he "come forth. Justice shall be done upon him." Most importantly, Sauron thought that the new (but still learning) ringlord was leading this army. One of the Ring's effects is to make its holder think he is capable of much more than he in truth is. So, I think Sauron knew quite well that the westerners didn't come to surrender. Last edited by CAB : 12-07-2007 at 03:58 PM. |
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12-07-2007, 04:23 PM | #26 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I may have mis-understood Gordis' post then.
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12-07-2007, 10:15 PM | #27 |
Elf Lord
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mmmm.. read this (sketchily this morning - had a few things to add ...)
but am too tired now to concentrate ... Have fun all, best BB |
12-08-2007, 10:16 AM | #28 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Tolkien says Sauron was weighting and calculating everything, that's why I spoke about probabilities. When lots of low-probability events happen at once, and all of them in favour of his enemies, it can't be natural. Let us take a random example. For instance at the Buckleberry ferry the boat happened to be moored on the West bank. If it were at the East bank, the hobbits would have been caught by the nazgul, most likely. The probability here is 50% - so I doubt this event being not in his favour would worry Sauron unduly, not like something with probability of 0.000001% - like the fall of the WK. (I hope I am coherent here! ) CAB is right, the fall of the WK to "no man" had been prophesized, not random. So it must have been in the Music, but then perhaps all the rest was as well? Maybe Sauron's fall was also simply inevitable? Maybe the ones who had played the music took care afterwards to see it all come to pass? There was a lot to set the Dark Lord thinking and to make him afraid. See how Sauron had reacted to the nazgul's failure in the Shire: Quote:
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12-12-2007, 07:15 AM | #29 | ||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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It would be interesting to know whether or how much Sauron knew of the prophecy and Gandalf's upgrade. He could have learned of the prophecy only through Denethor since it wasn't that widely known. But I have my doubts that Denethor had much faith in the whole thing or that Sauron could pry this from him. Gandalf's upgrade may not have been evident, other than his sudden preference to white garb. The Witch-King makes no mention of it in their brief encounter, but then again their meeting was brief. If he noticed anything, I doubt he had the time to pass this info through to Sauron. Unless they got some out of Saruman earlier, but it remains to be seen if Saruman in his bitterness saw much of changes in Gandalf. It must have been pretty frightening for Sauron to consider the influence of the Valar. Regardless of what hint Sauron did perceive of it, it must surely have puzzled him as it sort of puzzles me. Why now? They never interfered with Sauron before, not even in the last Alliance. The sending of the wizards is about the only thing the Valar have done since the destruction of Númenor, and even that is rather indirect. Quote:
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Umbar is a very difficult place to put ownership on, the Gondorean claim can indeed be considered sketchy after all this time. But Sauron pretty much never actually owned it, in my eyes. The Black Númenoreans were followers of Sauron, but not necessarily subjects. Sauron doesn't own Harad in a similar way. If the lands of Umbar and Harad were included in the terms, then basically what Sauron is asking is more land than the Gondoreans actually can give since some of it was neither theirs or Sauron's in the first place. But that's the last I'm going to say on this matter. Sorry Gordis, but all these territory disputes make my head spin.
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12-13-2007, 02:32 AM | #30 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Also Saruman must have given some explanations to the two nazgul sent to him. The first one went to investigate how the things were going and flew over Dol Baran. Another was dispatched to Isengard at top speed right after Sauron's video-conference with Pippin. I guess Saruman told all he knew to be left alone and not taken to Mordor for questioning. And the fact that Gandalf took on Saruman's White color and broke his staff and kicked him out of the Order meant that Gandalf now had the AUTHORITY and power from Up-High that he had never possessed before. Neither Saruman, nor Sauron could have missed it. |
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12-13-2007, 10:00 AM | #31 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Good points. I stand corrected, Sauron must have known something of both.
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12-13-2007, 01:35 PM | #32 | |
Elf Lord
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Secondly, there was no telepathic link with Nazgul. All the news Sauron got was (through the Palantir) "a hobbit in Isengard = RING" + "heir of Elendil" = "EEK!") |
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12-13-2007, 09:17 PM | #33 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I don't think that Saruman walked out onto the roof to meet the nazgul. He had been afraid to meet them in person even in September 3018, when he believed himself to be in Sauron's good graces - see UT: Quote:
And it is evident that Sauron believed him more or less, that he stopped thinking that Saruman had got the Ring. Otherwise the Mordor army would have marched on Isengard, not on Minas Tirith. Quote:
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02-29-2008, 10:28 AM | #34 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Matt.10;34:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Just a little more proof on that point about jesus not being a pacifist.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |