02-05-2006, 06:22 AM | #21 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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02-07-2006, 01:06 AM | #22 | |
Elf Lord
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Thanks for quote, Landroval.
IMHO it's a wishfull thinking, and an earnest desire to find a scape goat. Quote:
...(Gondor) "won much territory eastwards", drowing the "wild men" out of their homeland; ..."Gondor reached the summit of its power. The realm then extended north to Celebrant and the south eaves of Mirkwood;west to the Greyflood;east to the inland Sea of Rhun; south to the river harnen, and hence along the coast to the peninsula and haven of Umbar"As Gondor's expansion grew, so grew its appetite, the plundering of seized coutries grew up and therefore the wealth an power of Gondor reached such proportions, when «…precious stones are pebbles in Gondor for children to play with“(RotK.Appendix A) and "...the kings of the Harad did homage to Gondor, and their sons lived as hostages in the court its Kings..." , in making sure in this way, that any attempts of uncooperation from the defeated Rulers will be timely terminated. Does not it sounds somehow familiar? They were getting the spoils and slaves in a manner of the best Numenorian's traditions . Last edited by Olmer : 02-07-2006 at 01:09 AM. |
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02-07-2006, 01:09 AM | #23 |
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But not Arnor... THEY were the Good Guys!
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02-07-2006, 01:12 AM | #24 | |
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02-07-2006, 01:14 AM | #25 |
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Oh them? That was just the rebellious ones in Cardolan and Rhudaur.
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02-07-2006, 01:29 AM | #26 | |
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02-07-2006, 01:35 AM | #27 | |
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Note, it happened at the time, when, as an opposite , Gondor was growing in power. I read M. Martinez essay, which you provided to me some time ago. It's not like I agree with all his assumptions, but he has a strong point: by whatever reasons the kingdom fell apart, the poor leadership and over- ambitiousness of the princes played not the last role in this misfortune. |
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02-07-2006, 06:39 AM | #28 | |
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02-07-2006, 12:18 PM | #29 | |
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02-07-2006, 01:36 PM | #30 | |
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Do you really think that fortresses and tombs of Gondor was bult by hands of the king and his soldiers, or by hands of citizens of Gondor, children of which were throwing a gemstones - which, probably, with great difficuly were acquired by the rules of the oppressed lands to pay a tribute to Gondor? Do you really think that with the wealth of such immensity the people of Gondor were serving themselves or any willing and unwilling guests of the kingdom? Of course, not! They had slavery and they collected VERY HEAVY contributions from all lands under their dominion, all in the undying traditions of the late Numenor. And in the terms of expansion of the kingdom they even outdid their forefathers. Last edited by Olmer : 02-20-2006 at 09:50 PM. |
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02-07-2006, 03:14 PM | #31 |
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In the appendixes, it is mentioned that the Wainriders took slaves and also the Dunlendings - but never the descendants of Numenor.
It is farely safe to assume that they made by themselves the Argonaths (in which Aragorn takes great pride) and Orthanc (which is a unique building, unrivalled by others in ME) - I doubt that they had problems building whatever great tombs or fortresses. So far, I see no ground to your idea. |
02-07-2006, 03:35 PM | #32 | |
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I think there is little doubt, that Numenoreans -those who came on the ships of Isildur and Anarion + those Faithful who already were in Pelargir - were but a small part of Gondor population. There had to be much greater native population, "enslaved" or just opressed by Numenoreans. I doubt they had been happy, like those men of Dunharrow, or like dwellers of Enedwaith, to have to bow to the Numenoreans and work for them. Their hands built Isengard and the walls of Minas Tirith, Osgiliath and M. Ithil. Of course, the architects, supervisors etc. were Numenoreans. |
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02-07-2006, 04:16 PM | #33 | ||||
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02-07-2006, 08:30 PM | #34 | |||
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Landroval, in all fairness, what does your quote say?
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What do we know of the native population? Let us take the People of the Mountains (within Gondor borders): Quote:
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As for reading that "the Numenoreans built the statues at Argonath, Minas Tirith, Isengard etc.", you can also read that "Pharaohs built the Pyramids". That doesn't mean that the poor Pharaohs had to toil day and night hauling stones, does it? The subject native population in Gondor may have been treated better than the Egyptian slaves, but still...All those cyclopean constructions mean only misery for common people. And Tolkien himself compared the Numenorean kingdoms with the Ancient Egypt. |
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02-08-2006, 01:53 PM | #35 | ||||
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02-20-2006, 02:34 AM | #36 | |
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the "good" kingdom? How good the "good guys" if the majority of population wants to have NOTHING with them, even HATING them? |
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02-20-2006, 12:47 PM | #37 |
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I think I gave enough proof that it was the evil inside Men's heart that turned them to evil's side; orcs are in almost unredeemable allegiance to evil, and Tolkien notes that even some humans of the primary reality resemble them - the same case can be made of those who Men who turned to Sauron and against the numenoreans.
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02-20-2006, 03:19 PM | #38 |
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I believe Olmer and Gordis have the stronger case.
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02-20-2006, 04:24 PM | #39 | |
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02-20-2006, 04:33 PM | #40 | |
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Why, even the Breelanders were not very fond of Rangers! Isn't it more logical to suppose that the Dunedain were hated because they were hateful? |
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