03-16-2007, 11:15 AM | #21 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-16-2007, 12:43 PM | #22 | |
Elven Warrior
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When Doriath and Gondolin were destroyed, this proved the solution, because Eärendil and Elwing were permitted to journey to Aman and ask the help of the Valar, which saved Middle-earth from Morgoth's dominion. |
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03-19-2007, 09:34 PM | #23 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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03-20-2007, 05:16 AM | #24 | |
Elven Warrior
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I believe it is also pertinent to our discussion to quote Tolkien's statement that he considers the "quick satiety with good" as the "most regrettable feature of the human nature" (letter #256). |
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03-31-2007, 03:21 PM | #25 |
Elven Warrior
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Yeah, but turning evil into preparation for good things to happen is a very fascinating view of life.
Anyway, I just can't stop being fascinated by evil Elves. I mean, think about it: Elves are often portraited as the beautiful, merry people that always laugh and sing and so on, like Gildor and his people from FOTR. And then consider fell dudes like Fëanor and his sons - it's pretty hard to realize that these people are Elves - they just don't fit into how I picture the race. Crazy people that murder and threaten their kin, commit rape etc - and they STILL keep those Elven characteristics, like beauty and immortality. Last edited by Peter_20 : 03-31-2007 at 03:26 PM. |
04-01-2007, 03:13 AM | #26 | ||
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04-01-2007, 11:01 AM | #27 | |
Elven Warrior
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I guess kidnapping is a better word. Anyway, I'm talking about Curufin when he lifted Lúthien into his saddle. I really can't explain my feelings towards such characters, but it's such a cool combination. Curufin belongs to the beautiful Elven race, because he is an Elf, the race that so many people find wonderous fair. But Curufin, along with Fëanor, Eöl, Maeglin and company, is a dangerous dude that you definitely won't like to meet in a forest at night. Last edited by Peter_20 : 04-01-2007 at 11:07 AM. |
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04-01-2007, 11:40 AM | #28 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Actually Peter_20, I don't think it is accurate for u to compare celegorm and curufin to feanor. I would be scared to meet the former in the woods yes, but not feanor.
Feanor was not a blood thirsty murderer, those 2 were. All that he did was for grief and desperation not for self. Even the kin slaying to take the teleri ships was not so. The only truly vindictive thing he did was to burn said ships so that the followers of fingolfin could not come with him to middle earth; he did not expect that fingolfin voronwe would steadfastly hold to course and cross the "grinding ice."
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
04-02-2007, 12:15 PM | #29 | |
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I mean, think about it: those crazy bastards BELONG to the beautiful Elven race, the race that everyone finds adorable and so on. But those brothers don't give a damn about that - "we're Elves, sure, but who cares? Let's behave violently anyway!" Personally I always associated Elves with characters like Gildor and his people from The Lord of the Rings: the merry, sympatethic people that act nicely towards everyone. Celegorm and Curufin are the complete opposite, but they inevitably belong to the Elven race anyway. It's kinda cool. Last edited by Peter_20 : 04-02-2007 at 12:20 PM. |
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04-02-2007, 05:55 PM | #30 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think there's a difficult-to-define difference between "evil is good/necessary because it stimulates good things to happen" and "evil is evil, although it's trumped by good actions in response to it". I think the second statement is true, not the first. The first one would be like, "Gee, I'm so happy that my husband and children were cruelly killed because it led to Eärendil's journey and that saved Middle-earth!" The second, which I think is the right one, would be like, "My husband and children were cruelly killed, and that is a terrible tragedy and I wish it didn't happen, yet evil eventually is always overcome by good, and in this case the evil was used to drive Eärendil to his journey, which saved Middle-earth." It's hard to describe the difference, but do you see what I mean? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-17-2007, 08:56 PM | #31 | |
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04-18-2007, 09:43 AM | #32 | |
Elf Lord
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-18-2007, 09:48 AM | #33 | |
Elf Lord
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What you refer to as automatons are soulless creatures dominated by a greater evil. And even that didn't apply to orcs in the later ages.. They acquired a good bit of free will. The Nazgul are a better example of that kind of possession.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-18-2007, 11:09 AM | #34 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Tolkien had various ideas about orcs, that's for sure.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-18-2007, 11:23 AM | #35 | |
Elf Lord
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Aye but that is the logical conclusion if you follow the idea that evil diminishes an entity's choices. I don't particularly agree of course. I find it to be the exact opposite. If there is an "ultimate good", then there can be only one "perfect choice", as opposed to many many more "imperfect choices"... Having more choices would tend to lead one to the conclusion that one has more freedom of action... and less like an automaton...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 04-18-2007 at 11:24 AM. |
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04-18-2007, 12:07 PM | #36 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-18-2007 at 12:11 PM. |
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04-18-2007, 01:00 PM | #37 | |
Elf Lord
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Functionally there is little difference. In Order to be perfect, something must be ultimate and absolute. That leaves out the idea of a multitude of "perfect choices". Or I could just go bother Socrates and get him to ask you "What is good?"
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-18-2007, 01:04 PM | #38 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-18-2007, 06:11 PM | #39 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What I was saying was that I think there is a huge difference between a perfect standard of something, and a being who is perfect, and with the latter, there's not necessarily one perfect decision that the perfect being has to make on a given topic. Kind of like ice cream flavors - several can be "perfect" for me, and if I choose chocolate chip cookie dough over English toffee today, then that doesn't mean that English toffee is "wrong". Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-18-2007 at 06:16 PM. |
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04-19-2007, 01:48 PM | #40 | |
Elf Lord
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But I can't stretch that into there's more than one perfect answer... no matter how I try. As for the concept of a perfect being, in what circumstances would you see this perfect being making a less than perfect answer? You could say when it doesn't matter.. but if it doesn't matter.. it's not really a decision leading to action with consequence, which makes it difficult to conceive how such an act could be quantified as good, evil, or even of substance.... I don't think it matters to the integrity of the universe what flavor ice cream the Buddha prefers on Wednesdays... Here's a the question from a slightly different viewpoint: can you have a perfect evil being?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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