Swedish referendum about the Euro

[Sween]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
That's the typical arrogant Eurpean view toward the United States. The problem with Europeans feeling that they have nothing to learn from the US and they have some vast knownledge and experience to bestow on the United States is that nations themselves have NO memory - unlike people. We were the FIRST modern democracy - Europe, including France - learned from the US.

Politicians don't have PERSONAL memories of their country's past - you have no vast knowledge over an American just because you live in an older country. What you know about World War II is no different than an American. What you know about the 16th century - is no different than what an American knows. You read about it in books and study history that is the only way people gain experience of the world's past - unless you personally lived through that period of time.

JD is stuff like this which makes me lose respect for you! I normally hold you in the higest regard. You obvosly quite a clver man. But honest to god will u shut up about ur bloody consitution u manage to slip into most threads even if they are about the price of fish

Now let us please get this back on track because im not going down this road again. This is a very important issue for many Europeans (and if its not you need to find out about it) so please JD refrain form taking this thread to your own uses.

As for the European union i think it is important that we all draw close together and try and promote co-operation the euro is a tool to which this is made easier. I know for my job it would make things a hell of a lot easier but i fear it will never be accepted in this country

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
JD is stuff like this which makes me lose respect for you! I normally hold you in the higest regard. You obvosly quite a clver man. But honest to god will u shut up about ur bloody consitution u manage to slip into most threads even if they are about the price of fish

Now let us please get this back on track because im not going down this road again. This is a very important issue for many Europeans (and if its not you need to find out about it) so please JD refrain form taking this thread to your own uses.

I wasn't using it for my own uses. I was just making a comparison between what America did and what the EU is doing You can take it or leave it. I know the issue is important to Europe - as I said - it's important to America too. It affects us and our future as well.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I know this thread is about the adoption of the Euro by Sweden - but in my view - what the US did in 1787 is very similar to what Europe is trying to do now (but on a smaller scale since the countries will remain individual countries, at least for now). Europe can learn a lot by understanding the Consitutional Convention of the United States and how the differences between the states had to be adressed. Europe of course has been working on the EU for over 30 years I believe, whereas the United States developed the Constitution in 8 months.

Why is it that these threads nearly ALWAYS turn into America-threads? Excuse me if I offend anyone with what I'm saying in this post but I feel I'm pretty much done discussing America for the moment and I came to this thread to talk about Sweden's referendum and the consequences of it in Europe.

I grow mayorly tired of hearing things in the spirit of: "Europe's uniting, bah humbug. We done it ages ago and so much better. We taught Europe everything they know."

I know America was first in uniting but we're doing it NOW and are experiencing it pretty much first hand.

Btw, there is another referendum today. Estonia is voting about a EU membership. The 'Yes' side is expected to win a landslide victory. You are welcome to the EU after the vote, Estonia

Oh, I didn't know that. I would surprise me if the would say 'no' but you never know. I'd be nice if they joined though.

I must say that I thought it'd be easier to get accostumjed to the new currency, but after a year and a half evereybody in Spain is "thinking in Euros" at last.

It is quite an adaption, isn't it? I still have trouble dealing with the coins, so many tiny coins! Belgian frank-coins were much more different in appearance (and slightly larger and not so bloody numerous ). I still have to flip every coin lower than 20 cents to see how much it really is. I must admit I also still tend to think in franks a lot. It's a hard-to-break habit.

Euro is not only good for European (and each country's) economics. It's also good for people. In these two years I've travelled to Portugal and Italy (passing through France). I have done that several times before... man, now it's way more easy to understand foreign prices. I had always suspected that the french were robbing us, but now I know ot for sure!!

Nah... you Spaniards are just selling everything too cheap.

It was quite a revelation going on holiday and finding you didn't have to bother anymore with courses and foreign money and sorts. Though the adaption for shop-keepers and the like was far from easy.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Why is it that these threads nearly ALWAYS turn into America-threads? Excuse me if I offend anyone with what I'm saying in this post but I feel I'm pretty much done discussing America for the moment and I came to this thread to talk about Sweden's referendum and the consequences of it in Europe.

You know what - if you guys just let it go - it wouldn't have turned into an American thread. I'm interested in the Euro too - but also if you guys are too self-centered to see how it affects America - or completely uninterested in how we did - then that's fine.

I'll make sure I don't post into this "euro-only" thread. Maybe from now on we should have European threads and American threads - that way you guys can constantly bash us and call us ignorant Americans - while refusing to leanr our history and we can stay on our side so we don't get on your nerves.

I know America was first in uniting but we're doing it NOW and are experiencing it pretty much first hand.

Well you can learn about how we did it the same way you learn about your past - by studying it. It might give you insights into how to go about doing it - instead of trying to completely reinvent the wheel. But I know - Europe knows everything and has nothing to learn from the US?

[jerseydevil]

By the way - you seem to not notice that my post was DIRECTED to Linaewen. That is what the "Linaewen-" meant at the beginning of the post.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
It's ridiculous to say that you joining different kingdoms together is the same as us developing our constitution. Most of Europe is made up of countries which at one point were different kingdoms. [/B]

It seems that your ignorance is bigger than i thought. Don't they teach you universal history in your schools?

What do you think it was a kingdom in the the Europe of the 15th and 16th century? It was not an absolute monarchy. Peolpes had their laws. In Spain they were called "fueros" and were very similar to what later became a liberal Constitution. What the US added was the "liberal" inspiration, not the substance of a Constitution.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fat middle
It seems that your ignorance is bigger than i thought. Don't they teach you universal history in your schools?

What do you think it was a kingdom in the the Europe of the 15th and 16th century? It was not an absolute monarchy. Peolpes had their laws. In Spain they were called "fueros" and were very similar to what later became a liberal Constitution. What the US added was the "liberal" inspiration, not the substance of a Constitution.

What are you getting at? And what do you mean that the US added the '"liberal " inspiration, not the substance of a Constution?"

As for your history comment - we DO have history - but we don't learn every little bit of histoy about every country. Do you learn the details of our civil war or our revolution? If no - then don't expect us to know about the history of 16th century Spain.

[Jonathan]

Ok, I think JD has made his point so let us leave the America subject.

The votes are being counted. The first results show a small lead for the 'No' side, but one shouldn't start cheering or mourning yet.

In Estonia, the preliminary results show a huge lead for the 'Yes' side, 70% have voted yes among the first 20% of the votes.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Fat middle
It seems that your ignorance is bigger than i thought. Don't they teach you universal history in your schools?....

Yeesh... I'd hate to read what you think of me. I was always horrible in history (US or World). I know far less than JD knows about world history, and especially European history.

[Sween]

How has the campaign been played out in Sweden? I know if it got put to a referendum here there would be a lot of exgeration from the 'vote no' side of things. I hear stuff like we would lose the queens head (a debatiable loss) but thats not the case as far as im led to believe each country gets to chose the images for one side of its euros if im wrong please correct me. Also people seem to think that tax rates etc would be set by the European central bank.

Im not sure if i would want it to vote in this country as bizzare as this sounds i feel its far too important an issue to decided by the whole country. i say this because the ignorance that sourounds this issue and how easy it would be for the 'No' side to mislead people!

now now Ruinel im sure ur much more clever than you think you are at least you dont prenend to know what your on about

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sween
How has the campaign been played out in Sweden?

edited: oops... a misunderstanding on my part. Sorry, Jonathan.

Im not sure if i would want it to vote in this country as bizzare as this sounds i feel its far too important an issue to decided by the whole country. i say this because the ignorance that sourounds this issue and how easy it would be for the 'No' side to mislead people!

Wouldn't you want your voice heard, though? And surely the people would educate themselves of the issue before they voted.

now now Ruinel im sure ur much more clever than you think you are at least you dont prenend to know what your on about

Thank you for saying so, Sween. But I assure you that my knowledge of history is very weak. I did well in science and math, but history and government were always my very worst subjects. And my knowledge of politics abroad is also lacking.

[Jonathan]

The votes have been counted and the No side won a landslide victory. 56,2% No and 41,8% Yes and 1% blank votes. About 80% of the people voted i.e. about five and a half million.

If there is a second referendum, it is expected to take place in 2015.

On the plus side though; Estonia is joining the EU. 67% of the Estonians voted 'Yes'

[Sween]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Wouldn't you want your voice heard, though? And surely the people would educate themselves of the issue before they voted.

You will be surprised what people in this country allready pesume to know when in fact they dont know anything! No this is an Economic descission and should be made by people who fully understand this subject. I feel in this subject we simply wouldnt get it put through because of all the crap argueement that would be used against it....ive allready heard a few good ones

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Wouldn't you want your voice heard, though? And surely the people would educate themselves of the issue before they voted.

I agree with Sween. Also - Jonathan and I were talking about it and he felt the same way. it is far too important and complicated an issue to leave up to public opinion. People don't have all the minute details of the way the currency affects so much. People generally don't understand all the ramifications and it's affect on the future. We elect representatives to represent us and to know the facts on subjects and make the best judgements. I think it would be much better to leave in the hands of the educated - than to have such an important matter decided by the group that has the best commercials.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Jonathan said that when Anna Lindh was murdered the vote was put off a few days. She was an advocate of the euro.

I never said that. I said that the leaders of the biggest parties were discussing whether or not they should put off the vote. They all agreed to have the referendum at any price.

[edit] Oh, you already edited out that statement

[Ruinel]

I have edited my post already. Sorry, I misunderstood.

[Fat middle]

I'm sad for the results of the votes. Perhaps this was not the best momment to set the referendum. I think that several countries of the Euro-zone would say "no" if consulted these days. The policies of deficit that we're seeing in many countries are proof of that they're not convinced of the basis of the Euro.

[Earniel]

Well, it's a pity. Hopefully Sweden decides otherwise in 2015. That's a very long time, why did they put a second referendum so far in the future?

Jonathan, I'm wondering, how many information did you get about the effects of the euro? I'm thinking, if you put such a decision into the hands of the public, surely they should have some knowledge of what they're voting for or against. I'm just asking because Belgium didn't organise a referendum, so I don't know how it's like.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Well, it's a pity. Hopefully Sweden decides otherwise in 2015. That's a very long time, why did they put a second referendum so far in the future?

Jonathan, I'm wondering, how many information did you get about the effects of the euro? I'm thinking, if you put such a decision into the hands of the public, surely they should have some knowledge of what they're voting for or against. I'm just asking because Belgium didn't organise a referendum, so I don't know how it's like.

2015? why that long? 12 years seems a bit drastic.

Apprentally in this country we are gonna have a vote as soon as our economys are in line! seems the sensiable thing to do

[Artanis]

I'm sorry that the majority of the Swedes said no. But at least they're part of the EU. In Norway we've had 2 referendums about joining the EU or not, and the majority voted no both times.

I'm thinking, if you put such a decision into the hands of the public, surely they should have some knowledge of what they're voting for or against. I'm just asking because Belgium didn't organise a referendum, so I don't know how it's like.

No, I do not think people in general have knowledge of what they're voting for or against. Most people do not take the effort to dig into the topic at hand or do not know where to find information.