|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
04-07-2004, 08:26 PM | #21 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
Olmer, that is one of the most incredible reads I've had in while
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
04-07-2004, 11:45 PM | #22 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Nothing in the world is as White and Black. Much of the matters located in the Gray area, where the same facts can be interpreted in another way. It is always an another side of the coin. Quote:
Quote:
But I think it could be very incorrect to assume the maiar's infallibility , if Valar themselves made a heap of blunders. Quote:
Sauron as a maker of the Ring is more than reliable source. Quote:
Last edited by Olmer : 04-07-2004 at 11:50 PM. |
|||||||||
04-08-2004, 05:45 PM | #23 | ||
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
Quote:
That's okay, we're not in the confines of chapters in this thread, which is outside of the project. Go ahead and back yourself up on this (when you have time, of course). Quote:
|
||
04-08-2004, 06:45 PM | #24 | |||||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
Thanks for taking the time for these 3 responses and opening this up for discussion. Nice job. Here's the first place I would disagree with you. I don't think anyone here would say that TOlkien's work does not have a "deeper, inner meaning", certainly not those you are citing. The question is whether the "deeper, inner meaning" you are presenting can be supported by a reading of the texts. We must also answer the question of what authority if any to place on the author's own interpretations and understanding of his work. Most of us here would probably put a great deal of store by what Tolkien says, and it is apparent that you have a different take on that. So the real question is not whether there is more meaning than the plot, but what that meaning is. Quote:
This isn't to say that ancient myths and manuscripts didn't influence Tolkien--not at all, and quite the contrary. But there is no reason to suppose that it is a direct and singular influence. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I have some problem with the quotes below. The first one you say is on the cover of the Hobbit? Which edition? And why would a publisher in the business of selling books put a disclaimer that they had no idea who would read the Hobbit, the book they're trying to sell? I think you've also misquote Raynor Unwin...I can't find it right now but I thought his statement in this regard was in reference to the Sim, not to LoTR. Can anyone confirm these quotes and their context? Quote:
Quote:
The story you relate would make great fan fiction, but how is ol' Tolkien going to keep all this secret from his family? Wouldn't they have noted a strange elf or two? And the Bodleian is well catalogued, find the manuscript. Forkbeard[ |
|||||||
04-09-2004, 12:44 AM | #25 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
FB |
|
04-09-2004, 01:08 AM | #26 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
a) I'm not convinced that the Elven motivation in Middle Earth was preservation of the past, I think this was more a result. b) the Elves knew the whereabouts of the Ring all those millenia? Where do you get that from? c) so you're saying that Sauron was really Eru's agent against those rebellious Elves, who are the real evil? FB |
|
04-09-2004, 03:23 PM | #27 | |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
Quote:
The quote being "Professor Tolkien, but NOT his publishers, remains to be convinced..." IOW it is not his publishers that need convincing, they already know the book is good for public consumption. The quote means Tolkien remains to be convinced of that. |
|
04-09-2004, 03:40 PM | #28 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
Gratefully, Forkbeard |
|
04-10-2004, 12:06 AM | #29 | |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
A couple points, some new, some rehashing of points I don't think are adequately emphasized:
Quote:
Also, Denethor is respected, yes, but he does try to burn himself and his son alive, as well as taking the Palantir with him to death (those are in Tolkien, not PJ) and that certainly does not seem so balanced in the head to me. Oh, and Sauron/Thu certainly seems evil in the Sill, which is written omnisciently (not from hobbit POV like LOTR and the Hobbit), so the evil of Sauron (and the need to destroy him/the Ring) seems objective, not subjective.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
|
04-13-2004, 02:51 AM | #30 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.(Hamlet. Shakespeare.) The intelligence itself is a miracle. Over millions of species existing on the Earth only one evolved to develop high intelligence, and to compare with time of planet Earth existence , if we will count it as 365 days, it took only 4 minutes before the end of the year. So a human race is still too young to presume that they already know how the Universe work. Any way, the things, what we call now 'a miracles' in future could be very well considered as natural human abilities. Quote:
The novel "Don Quixote" which considered by esteemed literators as the symbol of romanticism, for example, was written by Cervantes just as a parody on chivalry. Quote:
Up to the day when Faramir was brought to the White Tower he was at the command of his army, sane and sound. Even Sauron couldn't overcome his strength of mind, only a despair of loosing his last son weakened his iron will and allowed the Dark Lord to break his mind. Quote:
Seems God had other plans for him. Quote:
First of it, may I direct your attention to such aspect in my posts that I have NEVER stated that the direct and singular influence came exactly from an Elf or lost manuscript. I just presented the way of my thoughts, suggesting a few possibilities, as unusual as they are, and disregarding them on the course. No need for you to prove that they are "wild', I KNOW it, just thought it would be interesting for some people to look from "another angle". BTW, librariy's books (even Bodleian) can be well catalogued, but not necessary all of them studied. It is still a lot of papers and documents in the libraries vaults, which require a full time workers just to sort it out and cataloque, and I am not talking about studies. And also, the luck of evidence doesn't necessarily prove that the subject not exist. Quote:
But I assure that all quotes was taken exactly as they were printed in the book. Just to ease your headache in the letters #109and #127 the fuller R. Unwin's reviews on the book Quote:
Quote:
Every book wouldn't fit my argument, but books of genius people usually have much deeper depth , more dimensional and therefore contain much more information for attentive reader. Quote:
azalea Thanks for correcting my perception on the quote Last edited by Olmer : 04-25-2004 at 02:07 PM. |
|||||||||
04-13-2004, 01:08 PM | #31 | |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
Quote:
Also remember, Eru does not involve himself highly in ME after the creation... so the fact that Sauron was allowed to live does not mean Eru ("God") necessarily had a plan for him. It just means he wasn't key enough to destroy utterly. And he is evil, utterly, no question, so destroying him doesn't have to be some sort of self-serving plot. EDIT: And in Tolkien, evil does exist in pure form: that's Sauron and Melkor for you. Very clearly expressed in the Sill. Oh, and about Allegory/Story, my argument would be that your interpretation is entirely Allegory, meaning that Tolkien didn't intend it. It may be interpretable from the text (which I would still dispute) but it isn't Tolkien's interpretation, that's all. Oh, and on a totally different point, Don Quixote is still regarded as the classic parody of chivalry Thanks for answering all this stuff we're throwing at you.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. Last edited by Count Comfect : 04-13-2004 at 01:09 PM. |
|
04-16-2004, 02:38 AM | #32 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
Evil NEVER exist in pure form.Remember A road to hell paved by good notions? It's quite true to Tolkien's stories. Let me remind you that Tolkien did not depict Melkor and Sauron as born to be evil. They turned into evil because they wanted express themselves, dared to be different and therefore became outcasts, but their notions from the beginning was benign. What "allegorical " you see in my interpretation? I agree, it might be very well not what Tolkien meant to tell and the another dimension in his book turned out quite independedly. But then again, as genius as he was, he might weave it in the story's canvas just for the heck of it. As he was writing to his son Christopher, it is not the story, which mostly exites a reader, but an untold glimpses of another stories behind it, which fuels your imagination. "Don Quixote it IS regarded as the classic parody on chivalry, but ALSO as symbol of romanticism. Last edited by Olmer : 04-16-2004 at 02:41 AM. |
|
04-16-2004, 06:06 AM | #33 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Quote:
Who's the elf's marionette? Aragorn? How is he an elf marionette? Denethor disliked Gandalf because he suspected them to have a conspirasy to have Thorongil (back then) instead of him rule Gondor. But that's ridiculous, and as you can see he was wrong - because back then Aragorn had no plans to come to Gondor to be a leader. |
|
04-16-2004, 11:26 AM | #34 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
Read about the last council before Faramir went to defend Osgiliath. ..."we should not lightly abandon the outer defence...the Enemy must pay dearly for the crossing of the River"... ..".I will not yeld the River and the Pelennor unfought..." Does he sounds like the man who is loosing his marbles? He was deeply depressed by Boromir's death, but was still sane and sound till the last two days of his life. Quote:
Rohirrim, for example, considered them as evil, clearly afraid and dislike them, saying:"Let them go where they belong, into the dark places, and never return. The time are evil enough".LOTR, book V, ch.II Quote:
. Quote:
Last edited by Olmer : 04-20-2004 at 11:43 PM. |
||||
04-16-2004, 11:39 AM | #35 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
If I am following your logic, the fact that Aragorn likes the elves and is their friend ipso facto makes him a "marionette" - by the same logic, Pippin becomes Denethor's marionette at the end, and Merry is Eomer and Theoden's.
What's this about people not liking elves? The friendship between Gondor and the elves goes back centuries. The Rohirrim came from the North and lack that link. Gandalf tells Pippin to keep his mouth shut because Denethor will THINK that Gandalf is plotting if he hears anything. By the way, Aragorn is unquestionably the heir, so it isn't exactly usurpation Earnur (can't remember if its him) explicitly recalled the kinship of the two houses of Arnor and Gondor when he took the throne. Denethor most certainly was jealous of Thorongil and Gandalf. Everyone loved Thorongil more (Denethor's dad included) and he hated that. I see Allegory because it is not the author's interpretation - that would be my definition of it. And those who would categorize Don Quixote as a romance are those who consider Shakespeare Baroque... fools.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. Last edited by Count Comfect : 04-16-2004 at 12:39 PM. |
04-20-2004, 11:34 PM | #36 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
Merry and Pippin was just servants. Quote:
Quote:
Gandalf was PLOTTING against Denethor, but didn't want him to know or to guess about it. Quote:
Then again it's just your interpretation and not an author's. Why do you think that yours interpretation is better than mine? I, at least, can back up each of my statements with quotes of the text, which was written by Tolkien himself, and can describe the way, how I came to logical conclusion based on the facts given by the author. Quote:
|
|||||
04-21-2004, 12:44 AM | #37 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
I still hold that Aragorn is no puppet... I see no shred of evidence of any type that he is manipulated by the elves.
About the friendship of Gondor and the Elves - the elves of Rivendell ride out to the aid of Eärnur in his battle against the Witch-King, and they are clearly acting as allies. Denethor is a suspicious man - especially of Gandalf, for "there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf (Appendix A) as early as Denethor's youth. So Gandalf doesn't want him to be any more suspicious than he would normally be, so naturally any talk of Aragorn would be a bad idea, and Pippin, the fool of a took can't see that without guidance. Now, now, I didn't say Denethor was "full of" hatred, just that he disliked being #2. He was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father (Appendix A). He believed that he [Thorongil] and Mithrandir designed to supplant him [Denethor] (Appendix A). If that doesn't sound like a suspicious, jealous man, I don't know what does. Although I suppose I might not know what does. That help your issue with my lack of quotes? I do most of my mooting at school, which means I do not have a copy of the books sitting by at all times, making it hard to quote very often. Very interesting discussion, thanks again for raising it.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
04-23-2004, 02:08 AM | #38 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
You are absolutely right! He is the most awesome figure. Brought up by the Elves and in loyalty to the Elves, and being in complete dependency from Elrond, he not only DID NOT become an elves-puppet (in spite of intended plan), but what’s more he acquired an extraordinary authority among the Firstborn. Quote:
Quote:
Let’s put it this way, Denethor was not suspicious, but apprehensive, and his believes that Mithrandir schemed to supplant him turned to be not baseless. As about being jealous, now I see that you were right. Quotes will be a great help in discussion. You see, all my logical presumption of the theory , which I’m advocating here, based solely on Tolkien’s text and in discussion , if I’m getting wrong in my deductions, I would be more convinced not by replies of popular believes that “Tolkien didn’t mean so”, but by support of exact quote of what Tolkien wrote himself. Quote:
|
||||
04-23-2004, 03:01 PM | #39 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Quote:
And there's no quote, as you said to CC, that would support your statement. Quote:
Quote:
But if Denethor knew who is Aragorn (heir of Isildor) then he should've let him be the King - and be 2nd in Gondor like it was in old times. |
|||
04-24-2004, 11:22 PM | #40 | |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
Quote:
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Research paper on Tolkien | The Telcontarion | Writer's Workshop | 10 | 12-16-2007 12:04 PM |
Demaethor and Amariel | Rosie Gamgee | Writer's Workshop | 14 | 11-13-2007 09:05 PM |
Whats on your Bookshelf? | hectorberlioz | General Literature | 135 | 02-12-2007 07:26 PM |
My 10Kth post - Tolkien and a California Girl | Rían | General Messages | 52 | 11-12-2005 10:38 PM |
a little orientation needed | DrFledermaus | The Silmarillion | 9 | 02-12-2001 05:48 AM |