06-22-2009, 01:42 PM | #21 | ||||||||||||
Lady of Andúnië
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Welcome to the Singers' Thread, Pip! Yes, this thread was my idea, for good or ill! I just thought that rather than rambling on taking up space on the Classical Music thread, that Tessar and i, and anyone else who might like to join us, could come over here and discuss the matters that concern classical singers. But other types of singers are welcome, too - we can all learn something from one another!
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I think in my case i felt that because it's something that i started out having, that i had to work desperately in order to hold on to it, at all costs - even going into whistletone in order to keep it (but this was terribly unwise, as vocal transitions are something we need to simply work with and accept). Why do i feel that it's whistletone? Because it is so disconnected from the rest of my voice. Also, the more i work with it (what i now call my 'false' extension - E6, F6, etc...), the effect it has on the rest of my range is an imbalancing one. By that i mean, i wind up feeling less connection overall between my registers, weakness or trouble in places i never felt it before, etc. It ends with me going back to basics for a while to reallign my voice. When my voice is alligned and in well-working order, my highest "real" note is an Eb6. My instinct tells me that pushing myself beyond that might not be entirely healthy for my voice, so i have been listening to that. Believe me i had spent literally *years* wondering whether it was a fault of my own ("I should be trying harder!"), or my teacher's (several teachers later...), etc, wondering whether i was simply missing something that would suddenly make everything click and i'd have a whole new world of repertoire to have fun with. But alas, no. With time, however, having the highest note humanly possible was not so important to me anymore. Eventually i learned that it's the whole voice that matters - not whether or not i could sing notes that only dogs could hear. Quote:
The cost, however, of gaining this new dimension to my sound, was the loss of the high E's and F's. Quote:
Don't get me wrong - I can on some days still get through Vorrei spiegarvi, o Dio!, which a teacher once handed to me and said, "This is perfect for your temperament." It may be, but i can't sustain a repertoire filled with high E's, especially since my voice has been filling out some. Quote:
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I think, too, what concerns voice teachers is that they are worried that the student will go for a "bigger" sound than their voice should be making, just to fit the generally accepted idea of what these arias should sound like. The way around this though, is to sing these arias in your OWN voice. As long as the singer stays within what constitutes healthy singing for their own instrument, and doesn't "push" for a bigger sound, they'll be alright. It's when they push to try to conform to the generally accepted sound for a role, or to be heard over the orchestration, that it can lead to serious vocal problems. Quote:
But now, yes, back to vowels... Quote:
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline Last edited by Voronwen : 06-22-2009 at 01:46 PM. |
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06-22-2009, 03:17 PM | #22 |
King of Nargothrond
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Oooh...a singers' thread! This is just my cup of tea!
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06-22-2009, 03:34 PM | #23 |
Lady of Andúnië
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Welcome, then! What kind of voice are you? Tell us about yourself.
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline |
06-22-2009, 06:29 PM | #24 |
Elven Warrior
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Gah, you guys are intimidating me with all you're writing.
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06-22-2009, 06:46 PM | #25 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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Well I know I write so much because I'm a chatterbox by nature . I don't know what Voronwen's excuse is!
But seriously, it doesn't all have to be a dissertation on technique. Anything about singing at any level is certainly welcome for discussing . |
06-22-2009, 07:24 PM | #26 | ||
Lady of Andúnië
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline |
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06-22-2009, 08:41 PM | #27 | |||
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It has definitely made a difference for me, and will help me prevent from bowing out my vocal cords. It's so easy to get caught up in trying to sing fully that it turns into bellowing, and that's definitely not healthy. What I've found though is that as my placement gets better, it's actually almost impossible to oversing. The minute I start pushing too hard my voice loses the placement, and I can instantly tell that I need to pull back a little. Quote:
That's one thing I really love about singing... no matter how great you are there will always be something to strive for. I think a problem a lot of people run into is that they stop actively trying to improve their voice... they get good enough to have a career, and they do occasionally still make an improvement... but then they wonder why their voice starts wobbling before they're even fifty. So, one thing I've discovered is that I also tighten my lips when I speak. Weird! What a strange habit I've gotten into... it's not so bad when I speak, and it doesn't really mess with my diction too much, but I've noticed that when I relax my lips a bit my speaking voice does seem to become more resonant and my diction is cleaner. I think it really is just like that old quote, "To sing well you must speak well." I think a lot of things (although not everything...) translates over. Obviously my jaw can't be as loose when I speak as when I sing, because I would sound like I had a broken jaw, but there is definitely a looseness to the jaw in proper speaking that a lot of people don't have. I'm trying to figure out how to safely use my singing voice at a very low volume. I'm thinking about rejoining a chant choir I sang in for five years. I quit because I couldn't blend any more and I got frustrated with the lack of musical knowledge. I thought I might give it a try again because I do love the music. So today I was playing around and found some interesting things... if I kind of speak-sing with good support, and paying attention to the vowels, I can create a very small sound that is still resonant and full. I don't think it's really the same as a pianissimo because it lacks the carrying power, but it seems like something that's okay for my voice. It also makes it easier to diminish, or even entirely remove, the vibrato. It's still kind of eating my lunch, in terms of ease, to stop the vibrato but it's not painful and it doesn't seem to dry my throat out... so we'll see. I'm proceeding with extreme caution. |
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06-22-2009, 09:38 PM | #28 | ||||||||||
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline |
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06-23-2009, 12:31 AM | #29 |
Elven Warrior
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I'm not taking any lessons right now (the lessons I took last semester made me want to stratch my eyes out though) but I'm doing some interesting stuff in worship team. I sing with two groups. One's more oragniazed and the other is fours people singing toa guitar. In the first one I sing soprano and it's always nice because even though it's not training I can still practice my high range. I can hit about a high C on a good day. However, I (and others) have found that my voice has a nice depth in it's lower range so the leader of the smaller group wants me to sing with it more often. I'm excited because I get to expand my range a little bit more.
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06-24-2009, 01:53 PM | #30 | |
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Why didn't you like taking voice lessons? Not a good teacher? Voronwen: I'll write more later, and answer some of the things you said in your last post, but I think the suspicion was correct and the placement I had was just a 'waypoint'. Today during the lesson we got it to move up a little higher... now instead of being right on my hard palate, it feels like it's a little above it. So at this point there's no telling where my real placement lies, but it may be more towards the area you were saying you feel it in. My teacher and I discussed the possibility that this placement is just another step along the path, so we're going to keep playing with it and see where we end up. |
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06-24-2009, 02:41 PM | #31 | |
Lady of Andúnië
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Pip - *Please* beware of group directors who want to use your lower range if you are certain you're really a soprano. This can be potentially unhealty, not to mention cause all sorts of vocal identity crises Please bear in mind that as sopranos, we possess most if not all of the same notes that other female voices do, as well as the highs. The real difference is in where your voice naturally "blooms" (where in the range the sound is the fullest and most beautiful when singing properly), and the fact that as sopranos, our "breaks" (ie. the transitional points between chest and head voice) are in a higher place. This last, especially, has to do with how the voice is built, its inherent nature, and makes all the difference as to where the voice will sound its best and be most comfortable. Ignoring or working against these natural aspects of your instrument (which, like height, is something we cannot change and must be accepted) over the long term can be potentially damaging. Just because the director needs more of a certain voice in his choir does not mean he should use you there just because you are physically capable of it. It's not good for you over time. (Can you tell that i *despise* directors who do this...? ) They're not keeping your best interests as a singer in mind. So, that said, since they're only going to think about themselves, *YOU* need to think about what's best for your voice and take responsibility for its well-being - and not let them boss you around. The voice is a blessing, a powerful yet delicate blessing. It's perfectly OK to stand up to people who are telling you to use your voice in a manner that is not good for it. Please promise me you'll keep that in mind, OK? I hope you can find a good teacher soon! They're worth their weight in gold.
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline Last edited by Voronwen : 06-24-2009 at 02:50 PM. |
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06-24-2009, 06:04 PM | #32 | |
Elven Warrior
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It wasn't voice lessons per se, it was an ensemble group, and yea, I wasn't real thrilled with the teacher. It seemed like we took up half the period talking about how awful the music program was at the school and when we worked on a song we didn't really go over what to do to improve the song, we just sang it over and over until everyone was sick of it for that day. It could have been that I always came after work so I was tired but it wasn't much of a learning experience.
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Although, I don't think he's doing it because we need a lower voice, because we don't really, he just likes the depth my voice has at a lower range and he likes what it adds. Another director has comented on my voice being lower for solos. My voice breaks at around middle F (is that the right way to say it?) and I actually have a lower talking voice that what I usually use to sing. That being said, I understand what you're saying about using a lower voice when you shouldn't (I least I think I do), is there a danger in using a higher voice than you should? Quite honestly, I don't really know what my natural voice is because I've been singing with different ranges my whole life depending on what someone asks for. I usually say I'm a soprano because that was what I usually end up doing. Quite honestly, I always thought if you were trained right you could use any range safely. Thanks for the heads up about it.
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America, what will we miss while we are sleeping/Will Jesus come again and leave us slumbering where we lay/America, will we go down in history/As the nation with no room for it's King/Will we be sleeping? Last edited by Pip : 06-24-2009 at 06:08 PM. |
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06-24-2009, 06:52 PM | #33 | |
Lady of Andúnië
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Do you mean that you experience a break on the F4, just above middle C..? If so then perhaps you are dealing with a lower voice. Mezzo-sopranos can have all the same notes as sopranos, and many do sing as sopranos when they're very young (when the vocal cords are very flexible), though their break usually occurs around C5 (an octave above middle C). For a point of reference, mine occurs around F#5, right at the top of the staff. If yours is happening at F5, then perhaps you are a soprano. Again, it's also about where the voice blooms and where it can sit comfortably for a long period of time. Do you get vocally tired if you sing in your lower range for long periods of time? How about your high range? Do you find that belting comes naturally, or are you more comfortable singing in "head voice"? Again, i can't really advise without hearing you, what you need is to find a good teacher who can tell you exactly what voice type you are. There is no other way to know. Then you can say with confidence that something is to low or too high for you (and to answer your question, yes, staying in too high a range for too long is also taxing to the voice), etc. Eventually once you build some technique you'll have a feel for your own voice and its character and these things will become apparent. But this does take training, and time. For many young women, it's ambiguous at first as to whether they'll develop into a mezzo or a soprano. With some reliable training, it works itself out.
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline |
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06-24-2009, 10:50 PM | #34 |
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Keep in mind, if she means the F4, that the F4 can be a transition point for sopranos from chest to head if the registers are not properly connected and she's dragging chest up to make a low voice sound. If you are untrained and you're constantly flipping from singing soprano to singing alto I could easily see how your registers would break into two separate 'voices'.
There was a girl like that in my studio last year. She came in and had a very pleasant, but also very small and somewhat uninteresting, mezzo voice. Then my teacher discovered that she was actually a soprano, and for a while she had two very distinct voices... the middle-voice and the soprano-voice. Then she unified them and ended up being a very beautiful soprano voice that definitely had a lot of life and shimmer. If you intend to continue with the high and the low voice singing I would really, really highly encourage you to get a teacher who can help you sing with a 'unified' voice... and all I mean by that is (in a nut-shell) having the ability to slide from near the bottom of your range to near the top of your range without your voice cracking, or having a moment where it very obviously 'flips' over into a different sound. But don't like Voronwen or I scare you . I know some people who have developed that (where they have an obvious 'low' voice and a different 'high' voice) and it's not like it's always a horrible sound or anything... it's inconvenient for them when they're singing something with a wide range, but if you're not planning to do a lot of solo singing it's not a big deal. I just know singing has become truly enjoyable for me now that I've had lessons and I can control my voice. I do hold that you should only do voice lessons if it's something you're really, truly interested in though... because it requires some dedication and work, and if you are only mildly interested you probably wont get much out of it. Voronwen, Sorry I'm still going to write that reply... probably tomorrow. Last edited by Tessar : 06-24-2009 at 10:54 PM. |
06-24-2009, 11:20 PM | #35 | |
Lady of Andúnië
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline |
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06-25-2009, 06:00 PM | #36 |
Elven Warrior
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I think it might be what Tessar's talking about, but seeing as I just sing as a hobby more or less and am not familiar with all the terms I could be wrong. Thanks for all the advice in either case.
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06-25-2009, 06:34 PM | #37 | |
Lady of Andúnië
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You're very welcome, Pip
Tessar and i tend to enjoy getting very technical here But please remember what he said about this thread in the first post: Quote:
John Lodge of the Moody Blues once said music is not something we ever retire from. My own voice teacher who has sung in opera houses all over the world once said that singing is something we can never truly walk away from, because it will always find us again. They are both right, as was the first person to ever say that you don't find music, music finds you. This thread is dedicated to any and all Entmooters who sing, in any capacity.
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline |
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06-25-2009, 06:46 PM | #38 | ||||||||
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Of course if a teacher tries to force a voice into a certain sound then that can really mess up a mezzo. Quote:
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Please don't let that experience turn you off. That is NOT comparable to a voice lesson... it sound like it was just a waste of time. Blech! Quote:
I am a baritone, but all of my choir directors (even one who was a great singer himself) tried to turn me into a bass because I have a decent low extension and I sounded fuller in my low range... but that's not my 'comfort zone'. Singing full on Bass all day will wear out my voice. Most people speak lower in their range than they should, so it's very possible that you're just speaking unnaturally low. I'd suggest doing a little research on the internet to see what your actual speaking range is... there are exercises, like saying 'mmmhm' and seeing how high your voice naturally goes on the 'hm'. Or there's one where you say 'hellooooooooooooo' and press rapidly and repeatedly on your stomach to see if the voice rises or falls. Quote:
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Particularly given what great progress I'm making right now, I don't want to do anything that might hamper that. Quote:
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So I agree with what you said. So, about my most recent voice lesson: We were working on the vowels, and we discovered that (for now) I just need to focus on singing a pure vowel over everything else. My voice is free enough and well placed enough now that when I think of the vowels everything else falls into place. Frankly my speaking problems are worse than I ever could have imagined . It's not just my lips, it's that my whole mouth is very 'small' when I speak, which was causing the lip tension. I recorded myself speaking, and then I tried thinking of the vowels as I spoke and WOW, the difference was huge. I do naturally speak like I have some kind of speech impediment . I wonder why no one ever told me that before. I think it comes from speaking so fast when I was little. I somehow got into this mindset that no one was interested in listening to me, so I had to say whatever I wanted to say REALLY FAST. Now that I realize I'm the most interesting person in the world () I can afford to speak a little slower. About the resonance: I'm starting to think that it's not so much that my resonance has moved 'up', but that it's simply fuller. Before it was a very definite pinprick of vibration like I said, and that's still there but it seems muted because there's now an extra buzzing going on above it... so maybe it's not moving so much as it's simple expanding. My voice teacher said that I have an unusual amount of resonance for someone my age, the problem is figuring out how to let it out. With the correct vowels, it really pops out, but when I let things be mushy that resonance turns against me O_o. It goes from sounding pingy to giving me a kind of odd 'rumbling' noise that just sounds like bad technique... it's actually my resonance existing but without proper space to actually go somewhere. Another thing we're trying to focus on is my support. It's something else he says is unusually well developed for someone my age, but I tend to want to chop the phrases down into groupings or even just words. Apparently it's something like having an awesome leaf-blower but only using it in one second bursts . As soon as I make sure to keep it constant (which I'm getting much better at) my phrasing instantly becomes much better. |
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06-25-2009, 08:09 PM | #39 | ||||||||||||||||
Lady of Andúnië
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline Last edited by Voronwen : 06-25-2009 at 08:12 PM. |
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06-25-2009, 11:08 PM | #40 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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I had a great lesson with my dad tonight. He's actually making progress much faster than I expected, which I think I can thank my teacher's techniques for, and of course my dad's desire to be a good singer and willingness to put up with the crazy things I ask him to do .
He's starting to get the idea of putting the vowel where he would speak it, if he were trying to speak resonantly. It's really amazing progress considering that he's 47, and considering how tense he tends to be about everything in life... It's very difficult for him to relax at anything. We're working the recit. of Il Mio Bel Foco and it's coming along. He's taken almost all of the shakiness out of his voice (which I think was just a support issue) and his voice is slowly moving up and forward. He wants to turn all of his vowels into 'uh' and make them from the throat, but he's getting closer and closer to the pure vowels and getting the sound more resonant and better placed. I'm having a hard time getting him to raise his soft palate though. He can't seem to do it intentionally unless I have him yawn, but sometimes when he sings it goes to the right place. I'm sure with time and further technique building it will start doing what it should. What really, really seems to be super effective in his case is speaking the vowel/phrase, and then speak-singing it, getting closer and closer to just singing it. Something else I adapted to work for him is going 'wooooooooooooooooo' in his falsetto, but pulsing the 'oo' like a ghost or a slow, wide vibrato. It forces him to support the sound and keep his throat open (if he stops supporting or grips he's suddenly unable to pulse the sound), and I'm hoping that it will eventually help free up his voice enough that he can flip it over into a real vibrato. Another effective trick is just a 'call and response' thing where I go 'ah!' on a pitch and he mimics me. It's helping get his resonators open, it helps place the sound while maintaining a good body connection, and it's showing him how to attack a note properly. I'm keeping him in a very small range right now. Except maybe on the 'ah!' attacks we're not going below a G2 or above a B3... I think we've probably gone to at least the Middle C or the D on the 'ah', but it's hard to tell since I don't use the piano for that. So really we're working just a bit more than an octave. Once that's solid and his technique is working I'm sure he'll easily start extending to the E4 at least. But we're taking things veeeeery slowly. Another cool trick is singing the 'ee' vowel (which he finally did correctly for the very first time tonight! ) and then sloooooowly morphing it into another vowel, making sure to keep the forward resonance placed exactly the same the entire time. It worked really well the first few times till he started thinking about it too much and it got throaty. But it was definitely a help! I'm so excited, and just praying hard that he'll continue to make progress and I'll be able to keep understanding how to keep moving him forward. I know he wants very much to be a good singer, so... If I could do that for him, it would be wonderful. Teaching an adult is always so different from teaching a kid! With a kid you usually don't have to do much to get them using good technique, but you have to do it without actually explaining any of what you're doing!! They don't usually understand things like 'make a bright sound'. Where as with an adult it seems to take a little longer to get the technique going, but you can explain things to them very easily. |
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