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02-17-2005, 12:16 AM | #21 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-17-2005, 12:35 AM | #22 | |
avocatus diaboli
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I'm not even a Christian, IR! I'm on your side! Well... sort of, and when I want to be. I'm just pointing out that nothing can be proven beyond doubt, one way or the other. [edited]The idea that everything we see might not be real or as we perceive it certainly does not support Creationism. The Bible and any other religious texts or ideas certainly get included in the things of which we can't be sure. All the same, I believe in evolution. I don't believe in Creationism, or Intelligent Design... or even God the way that most people do. Still, I won't discount the chance that I could be wrong and someone like RĂ*an, inked, or Lief could be right. Still, I don't trust science very much, but it gets me much further than religion does (usually). Yeesh... I can't imagine what I'm going to be like in about three years if I stick with this philosophy major...
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02-17-2005, 03:46 AM | #23 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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02-17-2005, 03:58 AM | #24 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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You know, IRex, it amazes me how vehemently you oppose any questioning of evolution. I thought a big part of science was about questioning and keeping an open mind! Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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02-17-2005, 09:20 AM | #25 | |||
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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02-17-2005, 02:14 PM | #26 | ||||
Quasi Evil
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Oh and nothing wrong with looking at things philosophically and being skeptical. Its a very healthy approach. As long as its true skepticism and not simply shutting out certain ways of thinking by default. wouldnt you agree?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-17-2005, 02:30 PM | #27 | |||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-17-2005, 02:55 PM | #28 |
Elf Lord
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When you begin to argue over the epistemological meanings of prove and fact, it's a good sign that the argument is bogging down.
Sure you can slip right off into solipsism and argue that all the rest of you nutters are figments of my imagination... But unless you have some shared contextual reality, then it all becomes meaningless. Since it's all meaningless I shall now give out my personal opinion. Evolution studies a mechanism for change in species (change means population changes and speciation). It is the most likely mechanism based on all of the knowledge and evidence that we as human beings have been able to collect. It is as certain as any other scientific theory (gravitation, electromagnetic theories etc). Which means that if contradictory empirical evidence appears the theory will be reformulated to accommodate the evidence. Because evolution is a study of mechanism, it does nt address certain philosophical issues that many people want to see addressed. That's too bad, you want cake, but it's plain dry bread. it's supposed to be plain dry bread. You can't mix philosophy and science. That hasn't flown since the middle ages. Science deals with repeatable observable phenomena, and the conclusions drawn from them. Philosophy is a completely different realm. It still has logic, rationale, and "evidence", but it deals with the non-empirical. Intent of origin is in the philosophical realm. And sometimes the line gets very blurry for people. For example, just because 99% of all known species have gone extinct is not evidence against a directing force. It's only evidence that if there WERE a directing force, it doesn't care about those particular forms for whatever reasons you may choose to apply. This is of course WHY science is not (or shouldn't be) concerned with such questions. They are untestable. And I think that's exactly what annoys some people who don't understand why they can't interject philosophical questions into a scientific debate... If you want to talk about intent of origin, it's a philosophical discussion from the get go. As for string theory I have finally developed a fair understanding of the basic principles. However since it involves massive amounts of energy to tap into the underlying principles, I have shelved plans to use it to take over the world, and gone back to working on my giant robot for now... But if you have questions about it I will try to answer them.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
02-17-2005, 04:00 PM | #29 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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We are not things. |
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02-17-2005, 04:16 PM | #30 | ||||
avocatus diaboli
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Ah... just so all of you know, I'm probably going to be kind of strange in a thread like this (and the What You Believe)... Half of the time, I'll be against all of you, and the other half I'll be with IR and science...
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I'm not trying to say that nothing is real and that we shouldn't talk about anything. I'm simply pointing out that no matter what we're talking about, we can't be completely sure of it. This doesn't mean to stop searching, just to realise you might be wrong. Quote:
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Hey, Blackheart... you do realise that 200 years ago, science and philosophy were the same thing, don't you? I still hold that they're more closely related than you'd like to admit... but that might be because I kind of have to...
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
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02-17-2005, 04:31 PM | #31 | |
avocatus diaboli
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I think you missed my point, Eärniel. It was the old, annoying, philosophical "what is really real" question. All evidence points to the age of the world, but if you let yourself question that evidence, and basically question everything. Well... it's not something I suggest thinking about unless you like thinking in circles and ending up possibly nihilistic and depressed... I don't think it should be in this thread anymore, but my point comes from reading Descartes' first Meditation (which is the only one I like). Everything we know comes from what we can perceive with our five senses, but how can we know beyond any doubt that the world we see in front of us is really as it appears? I'm not saying to throw away everything just on the off chance that it might be wrong... just to understand that just because it looks right doesn't mean that it necessarily is. Because sometimes it simply is not. *Think Galileo*
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
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02-17-2005, 04:46 PM | #32 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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It's fun at first but you get into the thinking in circles indeed pretty quick. It kills about every discussion after a while because if nothing's real you have no base to start from or theorise about or study, compare to, etc.... It's all nice to think about but it's rather worthless in practise, at some point you're going to have to believe that something is real.
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02-17-2005, 04:55 PM | #33 | |
avocatus diaboli
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Of course... at least one of my friends quickly want to start throwing things at me. Especially since I've developed quite the habit of turning almost every conversation back to philosophy... I think she finds it even more annoying than me turning everything back to Tolkien...
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
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02-17-2005, 05:12 PM | #34 | |
Elf Lord
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Philosophy is the love of wisdom. It does include under it's umbrella the idea that empirical facts are a form of wisdom, however it does not subscribe in and of itself to a rigid objectiveness (Science does, but that doesn't mean that it's practicioners are always able to adhere to those priciples). That is because the ultimate questions, the types of wisdom it most lusts after, are not empirical, but metaphysical. Why is a question that science rarely asks. How, or When, or Where, are more it's Bailiwick. It's perfectly reasonable for Science to ask how the universe started. But asking why the unvierse started is a question that it really can't answer, and shouldn't be expected to answer.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-17-2005, 05:21 PM | #35 | |
Quasi Evil
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My point in stating: the vast majority of life on earth has gone extinct seems to me to make it less likely that everything was simply created by a god, was simply a common sense one. And remember there is a gulf between a “directing force” (which could mean one of a number of things) and a “creating god” who weaves beings out of nothing in an instant. That “directing force” guy can fit a wide range of behavior if you think about it after all. But why have this monumentous event of Creation if 99.99% of your creations are going to die because they don’t work well in their ever changing environment. Or are you suggesting that he purposefully killed them all. if so why? That’s the common sense illogic thing that makes the idea of extinction seem a problem for the whole creationist model. I mean I suppose you could say well it us not for us to ask why god does what he does but you and I both know that’s a cop out. The logical thing would be to create stuff and let it go. Why have stuff die then create new stuff just a bit different then the old stuff then let THAT stuff die and make more stuff even more different from the original stuff… etc. etc. Seems a colossal waste of time and energy. A smart god would create once (which by the way is how its stated in the bible: there was ONE creation episode not billions) and then weave into his creations the ability for his creations to adapt and change over time if necessary. So a smart god, a logical god would make evolution part of nature (and this part of science). Where as if there was no creation and there was no creatOR then evolution seems to be the answer by default according to the data. So… I think I just logically proved that no matter how you slice it it has to be evolution. Im sure someone will poke a hole or two in it though… If to distance themself from agreeing if not for nothing else...
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-17-2005, 05:46 PM | #36 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-17-2005, 05:48 PM | #37 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think this is the fourth round (at least for me) on this topic, but I like how it's shaping up this time, and the questions that are going around, and the thoughts that are being thunk
Unfortunately, my in-laws are arriving in 1 hour and I have tons to do, so I prob. won't be back until next week. In the meantime, think away, everyone, and I'll catch up when I get back!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
02-17-2005, 05:58 PM | #38 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Even if you posit that situation, however, consider the example of a human programmer. He has empathy, he probably cares deeply about his code even. But the nature of programing means that the code needs to be adjusted because the environment of the code changes by the very nature of it's existence. It has to in order to be "run". Yet I doubt that the Coder grieves overly much because some bits get discarded... unless it causes his code to break. Entropy exists inside the universe, therefore defacto it is not a stable matrix. Any thing that exists is therefore subject to change. It is in fact a very similar situation. Now if you want to ask WHY it's that way, then we have to get all philosophical... Quote:
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All you have done is state what you view as the most logical course of action given a limited set of assumptions. -Assuming that there would be no limitations, even on omniscience, for example. (I don't want to get mired deep in the quicksand of Free Will v Omniscient Determination, so I'll leave it too you to imagine how or why an Omniscient Being would impose limitations upon itself) -Assuming that there are no reasons for further intervention (Boredom, correcting for self imposed limitations such as free will etc.) The point of all this crap is: While there is no better model of species change, it is an empirical model, driven by empirical data, designed by humans to explain empirical data. It is not intended to answer philosophical questions, so while it is fair grist for the mill, one should not be surprised that it falls short in answering philosophical questions. That's not what it was intended for. And in tandem- One shouldn't be surprised that a philosophically derived theory of creation fall short at the task of explaining empirical data. Wanting something to be other than what it is is a deep seated part of the human condition, a rejection of self. Reality is only a reflection of self after-all. But don't take it personally, it's a widespead trait, and it has it's benefits. If it weren't that way, things like art, compassion, and technical invention probably wouldn't exist.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-17-2005, 07:34 PM | #39 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(in-laws running late ...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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02-17-2005, 07:39 PM | #40 |
The Intermittent One
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it CAN be wrong, but the evidence, so far as i know points to it NOT being wrong, in my educated opinion
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