Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
[B] do we have the same edition??)

Mine is the first edition, and I have the illustrated edition by Nasmith.

Also, in the Athrabeth war/marriage quote, Finrod says explicitly "This IS time of war" (emphasis mine), so apparently he considered it a time of war, and "in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child ...". Why would he say this if he did not think it applied to her situation?

Well, I think he did mean what he said. I just think Tolkien may have made some small errors in recalling that he said it was at the time of the "Long Peace" and then by the end of the Athrabeth, it speaks as if the Siege is about to be broken, but we know that that happens in the Dagor Bragollach.

p.s. - I've heard about something called "The Annals of Beleriand". Do you know anything about that? If so, is it worth getting? Is it part of the HoME series? *I will NOT end up with all the HoME books! I will NOT end up with all the HoME books! I will .. oh well*

I don't know about the Annals of Beleriand, but Morgoth's Ring has the Annals of Aman, and War of the Jewels has the Grey Annals.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Mine is the first edition, and I have the illustrated edition by Nasmith.

how nice - I just have a cheapie paperback.

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Also, Aegnor and Angrod dwelt very close to Thangorodrim, and I'm sure were much more aware of impending doom - "for they dwelt in regions whence Thangorodrim could be descried, and the threat of Morgoth was present to their thought."

Do you think living so close to Thangorodrim influenced Aegnor's decision to leave Andreth? ("look, Angrod, there's smoke rising again - I think something's coming...")

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an




Do you think living so close to Thangorodrim influenced Aegnor's decision to leave Andreth? ("look, Angrod, there's smoke rising again - I think something's coming...")

I don't see why that should be. Dorthonion was in close proximatey to Ard-Galen. Is this not where Angod and Aegnor ruled, and where Andreth lived? The only thing seperating them from Thangordrum was a bulwark I believe. So, Andreth would not have really been that far from Aegnor. Maybe that is what made it so painful for them.

[Artanis]

Oh dear, what a sad story this is. I've only read the excerpt gicen here by Ñólendil, so my comments may be far out of scope. But I can't help but seing this story as a sad example on how difficult, if not impossible, it is for people coming from different cultures like Elves and Men to really understand each other, and to live close together in bliss. Let's also have in mind that these two kindred were not originally meant to live together in ME.

Andreth's feelings are so human. She has suffered many years from love unfulfilled, and during time her sorrow has turned into bitterness, because she didn't understand for what reason Aegnor decided to leave her. Even when Finrod explains to her, she does not manage to think of Aegnor as a victim like herself. She feels rejected, while Aegnor sacrifices himself and his own happiness out of duty and loyalty to his kin.

And this story settles Finrod as The Elf in Tolkien's world.

Do you think that Aegnor gave his life in vengance for Andreth's hurt caused by the enemy, or did he just fall plainly defending his people? Remember that Angrod also died in the fires of Thangordrum, so it wasn't like they died in some great sword fight like the Athrabeth implies. What are your views? Did he die for Andreth, his people, or both?

I think perhaps he lost all joy of ME because being there would remind him too much of his love, and since he wasn't allowed to return to Valinor the only opportunity left was Mandos. It fits in with him not wanting to return to ME from the hall of Mandos.

My 2 (long!) cents.

[Sister Golden Hair]

It fits in with him not wanting to return to ME from the hall of Mandos.

He could have chosen to be re-embodied though and to live again in Valinor after his death. I think the reason that he chose never to return was because as Finrod stated, his love for Andreth prevented him from ever choosing a bride of his own kindred. So in Aegnor's mind, it must have been a better thing to stay in Mandos til the end of Arda, rather then to return to Valinor and live without Andreth, or live a life of loneliness since he would not choose another.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
He could have chosen to be re-embodied though and to live again in Valinor after his death.

Are you saying the Doom was lifted when the Noldorin Elves died?

[Sister Golden Hair]

All Elves when they died went to the Halls of Mandos, there to be judged and then were re-embodied and permitted to return. The only Elf never permitted to leave Mandos was Feanor. If an Elf chose not to return then he did not have to, such as Aegnor chose. If you recall in the Silmarillion, when Finrod died, it implies that he was released rather quickly from Mandos and returned to Valinor. The ban of the Noldor applied only while they lived in Middle-earth.

[Artanis]

This must be the sentence you are referring to:

But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.

Thanks for clearing this up!

So Aegnor was griefed in ME and wanted to escape. His only option to do so was to be slain, and therefore he would not hold himself back in battle against Melkor. And if he thus could have vengeance, it would be for the better.

Still I don't quite understand why he didn't want to return to Valinor. Is there any reason he would feel less lonely with Mandos than in Valinor?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis


Still I don't quite understand why he didn't want to return to Valinor. Is there any reason he would feel less lonely with Mandos than in Valinor?

Well, in Mandos he would be alone and seperate and in spirit only. He would not have the temptations within a living body, or be around any. From what I gather, the Halls of Mados were strictly meditative and they were secluded. Also, when an Elf was re-embodied he then had the memories of two lives. It is interesting that Andreth says to Finrod: "And what shall I remember?' said she. 'And when I go to what halls shall I come? To a darkness in which even the memory of the sharp flame shall be quenched? Even the memory of rejection. That at least." Perhaps the memory of Andreth is what he hoped to escape by staying there. In Valinor it surely would have lived on.

[Rían]

Hi, Artanis! Glad to see you join in this thread. This is not one of Tolkien's better-known works, but it is really beautiful. Try to get or borrow a copy of Morgoth's Ring so you can read the whole thing yourself - there is much more than just the section SGH and I have been discussing. The actual Athrabeth itself is about 20 pages, and there are about 40 pages of commentary on it by both JRR and his son Christopher, with lots of good information!

There are also many other goodies in Morgoth's Ring besides this story. I especially like "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar", where you can learn fun things like the elves exchanged silver rings when they became betrothed, then returned them and exchanged gold rings when they were wed (and wore them upon the index finger of the right hand).

Also, thank you for your condolences on the 9/11 thread - it REALLY is a comfort to hear kind messages from others around the world.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Try to get or borrow a copy of Morgoth's Ring so you can read the whole thing yourself

In fact I ordered HoME 3-12 a week ago, it should be delivered any day now. I'll read the Athrabeth first thing when it arrives.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
In fact I ordered HoME 3-12 a week ago, it should be delivered any day now. I'll read the Athrabeth first thing when it arrives.

Wow! You'll be busy for quite some time! Please let me know which ones you recommend, I just have Morgoth's Ring and The Book of Lost Tales, part 2. I also have Unfinished Tales, which I don't think is part of the HoMe series, but is very good.

[Earniel]

Those were some very good insights, ladies. It was really interesting reading this thread.

And a fond welcome to you too, RÃ*an. (A bit late I know, but hey )

I've only read Ñólendil's excerpt, but sounds like a very beautiful story. *sigh* Why did HOME have to be divided in so many books? Why, why, why, why?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Why did HOME have to be divided in so many books? Why, why, why, why?

Because Tolkien left so much undone and so many loose ends. The series revolves around different ages also. The first two books, "Book of Lost Tales" is the old mythology. Book three is "The Lays of Beleriand" This includes the Lay of Lethien which is quite beutiful, but is also a part of the old mythology. Book four is "The Shaping of Middle-earth" This icludes the Ambarkanta and the Annals, perhaps the Annals of Beleriand are located here, which Rian asked about earlier. Book five is "The Lost Road and Other Writings. Book six is "The Return of the Shadow." This is part one of the history of the Lord of the Rings. Book seven is "The Treason of Isengard. This is part two of the history of the Lord of the Rings. Book eight is "The War of the Ring" This is part three of the history of the Lord of the Rings. Book nine is "Sauron Defeated" This is about the end of the Third Age and is part four of the history of the Lord of the Rings. Book ten is "Morgoth's Ring" This is the Later Silmarillion. Part one Book eleven is "War of the Jewels" This is the Later Silmarillion. Part two. And lastly, is Book twelve. This is the "Peoples of Middle-earth."

Christopher Tolkien also saw this as an opportunity to make correction to the published Silmarillion. You will find most of that in volumes ten and eleven.

I have eight of the twelve and let me tell you, it is some hard reading but so very interesting and beautiful.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Those were some very good insights, ladies. It was really interesting reading this thread.

And a fond welcome to you too, RÃ*an. (A bit late I know, but hey )

I've only read Ñólendil's excerpt, but sounds like a very beautiful story. *sigh* Why did HOME have to be divided in so many books? Why, why, why, why?

Thanks for the welcome, Eärniel It's been very enjoyable chatting here!

Here's the last couple of paragraphs from the Athrabeth for your enjoyment - if this doesn't get you to run out to your local bookstore and order it, I don't know what will!

Darkness fell in the room. He took her hand in the light of the fire. "Whither go you?', she said.
"North away," he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defense - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."
"Will he be there, bright and tall, and the wind in his hair? Tell him. Tell him not to be reckless. Not to seek danger beyond need!"
"I will tell him," said Finrod. "But I might as well tell thee not to weep. He is a warrior, Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me."

Isn't that lovely writing? It seems to be a major change of thought for Finrod, also - now he seems to think that elves and men will be together after the end of Arda. Thoughts? Comments?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Gives ya shivers doesn't it? It was of course Finrod's hope that Elves and Men would be together in the end. His idea was that Men would be the lordly ones and Elves would be where Men were in Arda Marred. A trading of places as it were. That is what he means I think at the end when he says to Andreth, "You are not for Arda" meaning "Arda Marred" "Whereever you go, may you find light. Await us there, my brother and me" "Arda Remade" And of course, Finrod being the insightful fellow that he was, Foresaw Aegnor's, Andreth's and his own deaths. Very thought provoking.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Why did HOME have to be divided in so many books? Why, why, why, why?

So Christopher had some money to retire on, naturally!

It would be interesting to compare sales of HoME before and after the movie (they probably weren't exactly jumping off the shelves before the movie). However much Christopher groused about the movie, I bet his income from book sales has gone up immensely!

[Earniel]

*dugs nails in table* No! Can't buy yet! Need.... money still! *resists buying urge* Patience, my preciousssss..... *we'll have it, yesss..... It's indeed tempting RÃ*an. It was a very beautiful paragraph.

So far I've only got BOLT but unfortunatly I havn't gotten around to reading it yet. I was going to try to collect them in order. But reading this makes me wonder whether I wouldn't go for Morgoth's ring right away. *sigh* Decisions, decisions......

I know that nearly every book from HOME has with a different contence but seeing how thin BOLT 1 and 2 are I can't help but wonder why he didn't combined some of the volumes. Oh well.... it probably was so he could retire easily as RÃ*an said.

SGH, if you had to compare HOME with the silmarillion and the unfinished tales, which would be the hardest to read?

But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me."

When he said 'You are not for Arda' he might have meant that she wasn't tied to the fate of Arda as the elves were. But that - when she died- she would go beyond it, to a place the elves could only reach when Arda came to an end.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eärniel

SGH, if you had to compare HOME with the silmarillion and the unfinished tales, which would be the hardest to read?

The books most comparable to the Sil and UT in the HoMe series would be Morgoth's Ring and War of the Jewels. I had no problem reading UT and the only time I had a problem with the Sil was the first time I read it many years ago. So to answer your question, I would have to say that the Later Silmarillion of the HoMe is harder.

When he said 'You are not for Arda' he might have meant that she wasn't tied to the fate of Arda as the elves were. But that - when she died- she would go beyond it, to a place the elves could only reach when Arda came to an end.

See my previous post. Throughout the Athrabeth Finrod and Andreth discuss in depth the fate of Elves and Men. They discuss life, death and Arda Marred and Remade. It is Finrod's hope that in Arda Remade Elves and Men will live wholely together in the present. Men will be lordly and the Elves will sit at their feet and tell them stories of the past. I think this is what he meant in that quote. He is telling Andreth that she is not meant for Arda Marred, which is the Arda they are living in during their talk. But to await him and Aegnor where she goes after death, because he is hoping they will be together again in Arda Remade.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
*So far I've only got BOLT but unfortunatly I havn't gotten around to reading it yet. I was going to try to collect them in order. But reading this makes me wonder whether I wouldn't go for Morgoth's ring right away. *sigh* Decisions, decisions......

I have BoLT part 2 and never really enjoyed it very much, I think because of all the name changes (Tinwelint and Gwendeling for Thingol and Melian?? ugh...) Also, after reading all of Michael Martinez's comments about BoLT belonging to a different mythology, I didn't really go back to it - it is just too different. (What do you think, SGH?)

Besides LOTR and the Sil, I have Unfinished Tales and Morgoth's Ring (which I got because I had heard about the Athrabeth), and like them both a lot. I don't know which would be next on my wish list - perhaps War of the Jewels? Would you give me your recommendation, please, SGH?

AND ... Just to stay with the thread's topic - The only thing that I don't like about the Athrabeth is the image of Aegnor with his hair standing up! Somewhere Tolkien writes that his hair resembled a flame (his name meant Sharp Flame, or something like that - don't have reference handy) in both color and in that it stood up like a flame! Not a good mental image, IMHO. Oh well, no one's perfect!