Teen Abstinence

[BeardofPants]

Azalea:

Yes, I think that is flawed thinking as well. I mean, if someone else fiddles with your bits and makes you orgasm, and that's considered sex, then what about masturbation?

I am in agreement with I-Rex. Oral stimulation is an act of foreplay/sex act, rather than sex itself.

[Khamûl]

Wouldn't this whole line of discussion be better suited for this thread?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
I pledged abstinence, but I didn't make a signed comittment or anything like that. I just told myself that I would save myself for my husband...

Starr, very commendable! You're about to go off to college in fall, right? If I may make some suggestions(?):

1. Make like-minded friends and hold each other accountable.

2. Avoid being alone with someone on a date... even (especially?) early in a relationship. You don't know each other well yet... and sometimes that makes it harder because you don't know where each of you stand. Also... when you're with someone you trust, still don't 'let your guard down' entirely. Often I think, two young people with very high standards, both knowing the other ALSO has high standards, will think they can 'relax' and that the OTHER one will make sure things don't get too far along. One thing CAN all too easily lead to another.

3. Be especially careful at the times when you're feeling lonely and/or depressed. You can actually be quite vulnerable then. Find other things to do at those times: force yourself to study, to read a book, to go out with a group of friends, etc.

Hmmm... I guess I spent 10 years being in my 20's! I happened to still be single that whole time... and most often not even dating anyone. Hang in there though! You can make it!

[Starr Polish]

Often I think, two young people with very high standards, both knowing the other ALSO has high standards, will think they can 'relax' and that the OTHER one will make sure things don't get too far along. One thing CAN all too easily lead to another.

This is exactly what happened in my last relationship. Gah...

[brownjenkins]

interesting and somewhat heated discussion

unlike many here i was far from abstinate or safe during my teens... that said, i was always respectful and never pushed any partners into something they did not want to do... the non-safe thing was a mistake, the non-abstinate part...

i can understand the values behind it, but there is a flip-side to consider... being in my mid-thirties now, i see a lot of old high school friends getting divorces (or close to it) from their first loves... i also see happy couples, but unfortunately largerly in the minority

in some ways getting past the initial few months of sexual relations takes off the blinders we often have about those we are with... after that you get a certain level of objectiveness that you never had before... you may get lucky and have gotten things right, but my experience is that this is more than often not the case

after you've gotten past that first sexual experience... and by this i mean a few months of it, not just one occurance... you get a new perspective on relationships... possibly a more realistic one than you had before (and it get's even more real when a kid comes along... maybe too real )

i'm not saying "go sleep around"... but remember that the desire in the back of your mind to experience sex (whether you admit it's there or not) can cloud your other senses

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i can understand the values behind it, but there is a flip-side to consider... being in my mid-thirties now, i see a lot of old high school friends getting divorces (or close to it) from their first loves... i also see happy couples, but unfortunately largerly in the minority

This maybe a little OT but I'm the only person in my close circle of friends who's parents aren't divorced! Though they didn't abstain before marriage, I don't think there's a correlation between that and divorce. (Though that may not actually be what you were getting at.)

[Valandil]

brownjenkins... I DO see what you're saying, as far as developing perspective. I disagree with you though that having sex is the way to develop that perspective. Frankly, I hope you and your wife manage to stick it out! It's hard for everyone these days... my wife and I are both Christians and went into marriage on the premise that 'divorce is not an option' - but at times she can get SO frustrated with me over the LITTLEST of things and start throwing around the 'd' word.

And yes Nurv, divorce is just SO common these days... it's sad too. I'm glad your folks have stuck together and hope you can keep that a model for your future. But a word on that to try to tie all this together.

There's this notion in our culture today that we stay married 'as long as we love each other' - and we view this 'love' in terms of an emotional high. Well, whoever you are, your emotions are going to fluctuate over time... and they may change. It's important to see 'loving someone' as a decision you make, and an action you take... not just a feeling that you feel! You just about have to be hard-headed and stubborn about it and decide that you WILL love the other! Then, those feelings will come back around again too.... and they'll probably keep phasing in and out over the years. We can take control of our feelings... and it makes for a much happier life than letting our feelings control us.

Some think that living together to see how things will work out is a good idea. However... even statistically, the divorce rate is actually higher among those who live together before wedding than among those who don't. Now... you who do / did live together with someone before marriage - all the best wishes to you - and I hope you beat the odds! But this is one where what seems rationally true, or intuitively true - is not borne out to be true by the results.

[brownjenkins]

what i mean is that sex is only one part of maintaining a long-term relationship... but before you have had it, it tends to hold a greater place of importance in your mind than it should

if your goal is to find a lifetime partner... there is something to be said for getting past "the initial experience" of sex

many of my friends are also involved in second marriages, some for quite some time, and are happier than i've ever seen them

so there is no "one size fits all solution"... abstinance should be a personal goal, not something you think will lead you to a better chance at a happy marriage later in life

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
if your goal is to find a lifetime partner... there is something to be said for getting past "the initial experience" of sex

so there is no "one size fits all solution"... abstinance should be a personal goal, not something you think will lead you to a better chance at a happy marriage later in life

I still disagree... agreeably! (and I imagine... quite predictably! )

[azalea]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Azalea:


I am in agreement with I-Rex. Oral stimulation is an act of foreplay/sex act, rather than sex itself.

Hey, is means is, you guys. I don't want to get too explicit (and Khamul is probably right, this thread went off on a bit of a tangent), but

oral sex can be foreplay, but if an orgasm is involved, it's my opinion that you can't say you've never had sex. A sex act is still part of having sex, right? Even if there is no intercourse. And no, I don't think you can have sex without another person. I didn't mean orgasm is the deciding factor, those were just my own personal (as I said, arbitrary) guidelines. I just mean under the BLANKET term "sex," for me, oral sex and manual sex are included. That isn't to say you couldn't still be considered technically a virgin, but if you've spent ten years giving guys oral, I don't think you can honestly say you've "saved yourself" for marriage.

I think we agree in principle, just not on the details/ semantics.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
I still disagree... agreeably! (and I imagine... quite predictably! )

i respect your agreeable disagreement

[Nariel]

This has become a rather racy thread. But nonetheless, I must post my opinion.
I am abstinent, and commited to being so until marriage. But then again, I'm a little wierd about the whole relationship thing anyway.
I haven't ever been on a date (which is not to say I haven't ever had a boyfriend) I firmly believe in being friends first. That way you already know the person's ups and downs and when you start a romantic relationship you don't have to put on a face.
Also, I think that being "intimate" (whether having intercourse or not) is a serious thing that needs to have definite parameters. This far and no further. I won't get in to my personal rules too much, but I think that sex is intercourse, that oral sex is nasty, and that heavy petting (manual manipulation) is just a precursor to sex, and that you shouldn't be fooling around unless you're actually planning on having sex.
That said, I hope to be a "never-been-kissed" bride, so that it's just that much more special for my husband.

Oh, and btw, if you get divorced because your sex sucks, you've got more problems than just the sex. Marriage should not just be about sex. Sex is an expression of the love and commitment you have toward that person. If the sex sucks, so does the commitment.

Anyone can disagree, but that's my take on the situation as a 19-year-old, junior-in-college, never-even-kissed-a-guy virgin.

I also fully support Valandil's "tips" to staying that way.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Nariel
Oh, and btw, if you get divorced because your sex sucks, you've got more problems than just the sex. Marriage should not just be about sex. Sex is an expression of the love and commitment you have toward that person. If the sex sucks, so does the commitment.

i agree... sex, while important, is actually a very small ingredient to a successful relationship as time goes by... which was partially my point... it can be a very hard thing for one to look past in those early years, whether one admits it to themselves or not... however, i am willing to admit that there are a select few who can see deeper than one would expect for their age

there are many different ways happiness... but they all start with doing what feels right for yourself

[Sminty_Smeagol]

it seems to me that once somebody has gone so far with someone... it's easier to go that far again. It's sort of like an addiction I guess... after a while making out isn't good enough anymore... next thing you know you want to go further again... It's like a cycle. I think the resolution that to somebody who hasn't done something.... what they haven't done seems a bigger deal in their mind then it turns out to be, and nothing totally sates the desire. That doesn't really make sense, hrmm...

But it seems with most people that I know, let's say they've had oral. It would be easy for them to jump right to it in a newer relationship.

I don't know. OT

[Valandil]

btw... if I can add one more good reason to 'wait until marriage' - it would be this:

I think those who consider sex as something only for marriage before they get married, will likely consider it that way after they get married. In other words, if you don't 'mess around' before you get married, I think you're more likely to not 'cheat around' after. Does that make sense?

brownjenkins... we've generally had good 'point / counter-point' stuff going here. However, thinking of this as a parent, if you thought there was a realistic chance for your children to wait on sex until marriage... would you encourage them to do so? Even if it was just 50-50, or a 25% chance or a 10% chance or less?? Would you advise them that it's better to wait? Or otherwise, how would you approach helping them determine when it is right? Just curious...

[brownjenkins]

i would suggest for them to wait to have sex until they were out of high school... but in such a way so that they would feel free to tell me about if it did happen earlier without me getting mad about it... i'd basically be giving them advice, not a rule

after that, i would say it is fine as long as precautions are taken and respect given to the other person and the situation in which it occurs

call me crazy, but i would probably advise against my child marrying before having sex, or even very early in their adulthood before experiencing life away from home, and maybe even school...

a touch of background on myself, i had sex in my early high school years with a few different girls but never had any true "steady" girlfriend (more than six months or so)... when i was eighteen i went to college for a semester, met a girl while playing with my band up in boston and proceeded to drop out of school and move in with her... i lived with this girl for the next five years, and in many ways i have never met another person i enjoyed being with on a person to person level... that said, she did not want children and was always a bit overly possessive... i never cheated on her, but towards the end of our relationship her suspicions about this sort of thing drove us apart (playing in a band i was obviously out alone a lot)

we broke up when i was 23, and i stayed away from serious relationships for close to six years... i honestly thought i had lost the "soulmate" you always hear about... i was also much more choosey about who i spent serious time with

to make a long story short, my wife now is someone i love just as dearly, in a different, but just as strong way... i also think i am a better person for my past experiences than i could ever had been with my first "soulmate"... i think part of this is because i no longer stay with my wife because if feel i need her, or cannot make it if i lost her... it's more because i truely want to be with her

if i was brought up differently, i may have felt that i had to stay with my first girlfriend and "make it work"... this might have been possible, but i have my doubts... in my experience people may change in shades, but not often do they switch colors

as i said before... none of this means you can't get lucky in that first love, i just think the odds of ending up with a mate you truely want to live a lifetime with are better with more time and experience behind your choice

[brownjenkins]

in rereading this... i hope i didn't say more than you really wanted to know

[Sminty_Smeagol]

sry for interrupting your interesting comments brownjenkins, not to stray from the topic but I don't have any comments for it, so I'd like to add a random little thought (off on the old tangent) here...

but then is having sex using a condom really sex? Your organs arent actually touching and there is a barrier. And it's like, the penis wouldn't technically be IN the vagina, the condom would be, with the penis just so happens on the other side.... I don't know

[Insidious Rex]

why did you grey that?

[Sminty_Smeagol]

seemed mildly explicit?