Legolas a prince?

[Utúllelyo]

Well speaking of Legolas, i always wondered if he was around during the battle of Five Armies, or more accurately in the Battle of Five Armies.


And for anyone who cares, ive been drawing like mad recently to improve on my horrific portraits(some of which are in the Fan Art section) and i have done so quite well if i may blow my own horn for a minute. I have a variety of LotR characters(minor and major) all done out and i will be posting them on my web page. So anyone interested can watch for that.

PS. My Legolas has brown hair with a touch of blond. I made a compromise.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Elven Princess Arwen
I meant to pose that as a question. As in: "he is 2,931 years old?"

Oh. I get it.

[Ñólendil]

and I don't recall anything special that Gimli did

Until the Great River, I think Gimli and Legolas were equal in deed. Legolas jumped ahead -- I think -- by slaying the winged beast. But after that I think Gimli beats him. In the Battle of the Hornburg Gimli saves the life of Éomer, (can someone quote the passage about Legolas saving Aragorn?), and it is Gimli that notifies Théoden's army that the Orcs had breached the wall and were invading Helm's Deep, where, I believe, much store of food, as well as women and children, were residing. Gimli shouts "the Orcs are in the Deep! The Orcs are in the Deep!" and his cry is heard by Gamling the Old, who takes a small company and with Gimli proceeds to beat the crap out of their enemies. Later in the battle Gimli directs the procedure of patching up the breach. The other chief accomplishment of Gimli was the rescuing of Pippin. It was Gimli that found Pippin beneath the hill-troll chief that he had slain, and had he not heaved the huge carcase off of his hobbit-friend, he would have died.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
(can someone quote the passage about Legolas saving Aragorn

Someone will

from the "Helm's Deep" chpt of TTT:
A broad stairway climbed from the Deep up to the Rock and the rear-gate of the Hornburg. Near the bottom stood Aragorn. In his hand still Andúril gleamed, and the terror of the sword for a while held back the enemy, as one by one all who could gain the stair passed up towards the gate. Behind on the upper steps knelt Legolas. His bow was bent, but one gleaned arrow was all that he had left, and he peered out now, ready to shoot the first Orc that should dare to approach the stair.

'All who can have now got safe within, Aragorn,' he called. 'Come back!'

Aragorn turned and sped up the stair; but as he ran he stumbled in his weariness. At once his enemies leapt forward. Up came the Orcs, yelling, with their long arms stretched out to seize him. The foremost fell with Legolas' last arrow in his throat, but the rest sprang after him. Then a great boulder, cast from the outer wall above, crashed down upon the stair, and hurled them back into the Deep. Aragorn gained the door, and swiftly it clanged to behind him.

(gee, it's nice to be able to type fast!)

[Ñólendil]

Thank you, RÃ*an.

I now say that Gimli has three things over Legolas:

1)His rallying of Gamling's soldiers to defeat the Orcs who had invaded Helm's Deep

2)The directing of the repairs in the breach of the wall of the Burg.

3)The rescuing of Peregrin Took after the Battle of the Morannon.

[Utúllelyo]

I shall cut that score to two i think Ñólendil. For if the elves of Lorien did not hear Legolas' singing (at the river of which the name escapes me) then they would have shot the fellowship where they stood.

Gimli-3
Legolas-2


ps. Albeit that it was an un-intentional contribution, it was a contribution none the less.

-Utúlio-

[Rían]

Although it unintentionally kept them from being shot, I think it was intentionally trying to be kind to his fellow travellers after their sorrow in Moria, so full points for the elf!

ps - the stream was the Nimrodel.

[Ithildin55]

Originally posted by Utúllelyo
Well speaking of Legolas, i always wondered if he was around during the battle of Five Armies, or more accurately in the Battle of Five Armies....

Since Tolkien had not yet invented the character of Legolas when he wrote The Hobbit it is only by conjecture that he can be placed at the Battle of Five Armies.

“’You were less tender to me,’ said Glôin with a flash of his eyes, as old memories were stirred of his imprisonment in the deep places of the Elven-king’s halls.� FotR, The Council of Elrond

While open to interpretation, IMO Glôin’s comment at the Council of Elrond does imply that Legolas was around and involved at the time, so it is logical to assume he would likely have been at the battle also.

When Thranduil marched to Erebor he knew the dragon was dead and assumed the Dwarves were too. He had no idea that Dain & Co. were on the way- much less that the Orcs and werewolves were coming. My guess is that when Thranduil left Mirkwood he did not really anticipate a battle at all - though he was certainly prepared to fight if need be. He was probably counting on the show of force if any opposition presented itself. Thus he would have had no reason to leave Legolas behind. In Tolkien's heroic world of Middle-earth sons of kings generally marched with their fathers into battle, and took their chances at their sides rather than staying home where it was safe. Therefore I imagine he was with Thranduil during the battle.

Ithildin55

[Rían]

The character of Legolas has always been rather intriguing for me (and for many others, too, as you can see by the threads). For someone with as much "page time" as he has, he is rather mysterious and not well-defined in some ways. I feel comfortable with "knowing" who Gimli is (Gloin's son, with whom we spent much time with in The Hobbit) - his background seems well-defined. The same for the hobbits, and Aragorn, and Boromir, and even Gandalf in many ways.

But here is Legolas, the son of an Elvenking, and I can't remember anywhere in the books, as he is introduced to various people, where his status is mentioned, which seems a little odd. Maybe I just have the British prince idea in my head, and elven princes aren't automatically given greater status. Even in the "Field of Cormallen" chapter, after all the "troubles" are over, when the minstrel makes his opening address, Legolas is basically equated with Gimli status-wise. I would think at least that they would say "Legolas, son of Thranduil of Mirkwood", but it is "Elf and Dwarf". Also when he meets Imrahil, and other things like that...

Now I know he is WAAAAY secondary to the mission of destroying the ring, but I wonder why Tolkien did not define his background in a less ambiguous way (including age, let alone hair color ). I think maybe it's because the Elves were leaving ME by this time, and he wanted to give a less "solid" feel to the character of an elf with whom we would spend many pages.

I'm not expressing myself too well here - argh! I suppose he had to have SOME status and skills to be included in the Fellowship. It would have been interesting if Tolkien had "let us in" on the who-will-be-in-the-fellowship discussion when they were talking about Legolas. It certainly makes sense for the son of the king to be sent to Rivendell with the terrible news that Gollum had escaped, but then picking him to join the Fellowship is another story...

[Utúllelyo]

"when the minstrel makes his opening address, Legolas is basically equated with Gimli status-wise. I would think at least that they would say "Legolas, son of Thranduil of Mirkwood", but it is "Elf and Dwarf". -

Yes that also seems quite odd to me. But i must say they also never mention Gimli's affiliation with the house of Durin at such times. Which in itself shows great history.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Perhaps because the time of the Elves was ending, and the dominion of Man was at hand that the Elves really no longer had a need for noble titles.

[Rían]

Galadriel DOES welcome him as "son of Thranduil" (I just checked). But I was thinking mostly of people like Theoden, to whom a king's son might have some importance. I guess Prince Legolas of Mirkwood is not the same as Prince Charles of GB.

Yes, Utúllelyo, that's true about Durin.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Tolkien made him hard to "settle down with" on purpose - he's too great a writer to accidentally leave someone's history unsettled. I feel more "at home" with the humans and hobbits, and even Gimli, while I feel like Legolas is elusive somehow, and not like me in some basic way.

[Rían]

BTW, I don't think I've ever even seen the phrase "Prince so-and-so" anywhere - or even a "King such-and-such". Does anyone remember that type of usage? I've seen "High King of the Noldor", etc., but I don't remember "King Turgon".

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
BTW, I don't think I've ever even seen the phrase "Prince so-and-so" anywhere - or even a "King such-and-such". Does anyone remember that type of usage? I've seen "High King of the Noldor", etc., but I don't remember "King Turgon".

Oh I do, and there are many times in the Sil. that Finrod is refered to as king. I have always found it interesting that Galadriel never had a royal title but for "Lady"

[Rían]

ok, with a quick scan I see "King Felagund" and "King Thingol", so I guess my memory was pretty bad! I remembered "King of Nargothrond" and "King of the Noldor", but not the others.

How about "Prince so-and-so"? Or is "prince" not really used anywhere? I certainly don't remember "Prince Maedhros" or anything like that (but then I was wrong about King Thingol, too )

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
ok, with a quick scan I see "King Felagund" and "King Thingol", so I guess my memory was pretty bad! I remembered "King of Nargothrond" and "King of the Noldor", but not the others.

How about "Prince so-and-so"? Or is "prince" not really used anywhere? I certainly don't remember "Prince Maedhros" or anything like that (but then I was wrong about King Thingol, too )

There is a whole chapter in the Sil called "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie. I could not find anywhere in the book where any of them were refered to as prince in dialog or in the narrative. They were often refered to as "lord"

Also in the chapter: Of Maeglin, Turgon is refered to as "king"

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
The character of Legolas has always been rather intriguing for me (and for many others, too, as you can see by the threads). For someone with as much "page time" as he has, he is rather mysterious and not well-defined in some ways.

Now that I think about it, you are right, Rian. Legolas is mysterious and not just because we don't know his hair color (we know every other member of the fellowships hair color!) I have always wondered why Legolas was chosen to go with the fellowship when 'higher' elves could have went.

“’You were less tender to me,’ said Glôin with a flash of his eyes, as old memories were stirred of his imprisonment in the deep places of the Elven-king’s halls.� FotR, The Council of Elrond

I always assumed this meant Legolas' kin, not Legolas himself.

[Rían]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that chapter, SGH - thanks. But still no "Prince Fingolfin" or anything, is there? Maybe JRRT was trying to make things different from the monarchy of his own country.

by cassiopeia
(we know every other member of the fellowships hair color!) I have always wondered why Legolas was chosen to go with the fellowship when 'higher' elves could have went.

re hair - yes, I think you're probably right. I think Boromir was mentioned as having dark hair, but they changed it for the movie so people wouldn't get him confused with Aragorn. Something about perhaps a few too many characters to keep track of....?

Yes, the choice of Legolas is interesting. Oh, here's something I just found that I didn't remember. From "The Ring Goes South" in FoTR, Gandalf talks to the hobbits about Elrond sending out scouts, and says "they will get in touch with the Rangers, and maybe with Thranduil's folk in Mirkwood." I imagine Legolas would have sent a message to his father, and perhaps both L. and his dad really wanted him to go because of losing Gollum on their watch. Obviously, since Elrond was in charge of choosing, it was a wise decision. For the last 2 open spots, Elrond considered someone from his household (which would have included some pretty powerful elves) but then went with Pip and Merry, on Gandalf's recommendation.

Another interesting thing - Elrond says Gimli and Legolas would represent elves and dwarves, and "They are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond." That seems strange - I wonder why they didn't commit to the whole quest right up front?

Oh and cass, I agree with you, I think 'you' is just 'you Mirkwood elves'.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Another interesting thing - Elrond says Gimli and Legolas would represent elves and dwarves, and "They are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond." That seems strange - I wonder why they didn't commit to the whole quest right up front?

I think they knew war would soon come to their respective realms, and perhaps at first they preferred to go home and help. Just like Aragorn and Boromir who were drawn to the defence of Minas Tirith.

Darn, I want to say more, but must cook dinner.

[Rían]

That's a great point, Artanis! I didn't think of that. When it came down to the end of things, I'm sure they would want to be defending their own homes and people. Now I feel better about Legolas and Gimli on that point.

(I hope dinner came out well, Artanis I made something last night that was healthy, inexpensive ... and not my daughter's favorite thing. She was trying to have a good attitude about it, and she said to me with a big smile on her face "Mommy, I love all of your dinners, even though they're disgusting! )