06-06-2003, 12:12 AM | #21 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
question: WHERE DID YOU GET THAT IDEA FROM? seriously though, you are the first person to think that!
i can't imagine what would give you that impression.
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
06-06-2003, 12:44 AM | #22 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
06-06-2003, 12:50 AM | #23 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
NOT!!!!!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
06-06-2003, 02:50 AM | #24 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Re: Atheists and Fantasy
I agree with HOBBIT, I don't see that a person's belief has anything to do with the ability to enjoy a Fantasy book.
I like both good Sci-Fi and Fantasy books, for various reasons, just like I like 'ordinary' books for various reasons. A good story well told, a story that manage to say something about our world in general, persons that seem 'real' to the reader. I like Philip K. Dick's definition of the difference between Sci-Fi and Fantasy. He says a story is Sci-Fi if you think it is possible that it could happen in reality, and Fantasy id you think it impossible. It is a definition which gives the reader the power to place the book in what genre you prefer yourself.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
06-06-2003, 06:44 AM | #25 | ||
Corruptor
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Jozi SA
Posts: 1,885
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Don't wet yourself with excitement. |
||
06-06-2003, 11:27 AM | #26 |
Mirthful Maiden
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 1,252
|
I wouldn't call myself an atheist, but I'm not really religious by following the bible, jesus, god, heaven.......etc.
I don't need to believe in god to enjoy a good book. I reads all types of genres and yes, fantasy is my favorite. The reason I love it so much is because of what it is, fantasy. I can pick up a book and be transported to another world of imagination and adventure. I can separate from so called reality and be caught up in a place where reality doesn't exist. But that doesn't mean that I believe it to be true.
__________________
The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men.~ J.R.R. Tolkien Wanna play? www.thievesguild.com |
06-06-2003, 01:09 PM | #27 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
06-06-2003, 01:14 PM | #28 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
HOBBIT is a gi-iiirl! Woeha! Neh neh neh!
Okay, serious again.... I don't think that just because atheists do not have faith in gods of various religions, that they are completely without faith what so ever. One faith does not necesarily rule out another. Everyone believes in one thing or another, everyone has some personal superstitions. Some people say "Break a leg" when a friend has to preform on stage when they most definately don't want to see it happen. I know I girl who is a convinced atheist but there are things she will never do because she thinks it's bad luck. And who has never looked for a four-leafed clover for luck? Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you will read Einstein to your kids instead of fairy tales.
__________________
We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 06-06-2003 at 01:15 PM. |
06-07-2003, 01:01 AM | #29 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
Don't make this a hit-and-run topic now Gwaimir. I'm curious to hear Gwaimir Windgem's thoughts on this now. I can see why he might think that, and I understand what he is saying - it just doesn't work - as everyone in this topic has demonstrated....
I'm just curious if Gwaimir Windgem now sees why atheists can enjoy fantasy or what. I've seen the "who's online" and I know he has seen the replies and just chosen not to reply. I wonder why? This topic was started by him. oh well. Just an observation.
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
06-07-2003, 01:19 AM | #30 | ||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
I was merely going to wait for more answers. I have to get off shortly, but I'll get off some quick replies first.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Okay, not so short. And now I've missed most of my show!
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
||||||
06-07-2003, 01:29 AM | #31 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Gwai, TV is the opiate of the masses. Break free of the needle!
As far as your definition of faith... I have 'faith' that you are a boy. I have not seen you in person, I only believe this without proof. There's your faith for ya. And you still have not addressed the repeated reply that Atheists still like to enjoy a good story. I have a question for you: if you are reading a good story in which the main character group worships a group of gods and goddesses. By reading this story and enjoying it, does this mean that you now worship other gods beside your Christian god. Do you have to believe that these gods and goddesses exist in order to enjoy the story? And if so, does this mean that you have now sinned by worshipping other gods/goddesses? |
06-07-2003, 01:39 AM | #32 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
The only TRUE mythical creature is the NEW JERSEY DEVIL.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
||
06-07-2003, 01:40 AM | #33 | |
Canadian Guy.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The true North Strong and Free
Posts: 1,513
|
Quote:
and the Ogopogo
__________________
"Canadians are so apathetic, but, what are you gonna do about it" -Glen Foster Wierd Harry Potter quotes the old nintendo duck hunt game Lemmings Swron Random Homer Simpson Quotes |
|
06-07-2003, 01:40 AM | #34 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
06-07-2003, 02:49 AM | #35 |
Fowl Administrator
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 53,420
|
GW, I find your spin on this topic particularly interesting, largely because I have seen a great deal of anti-fantasy rhetoric from the religious right, but never from atheist groups. Certainly, the religious groups to which I refer are witch-hunters whose extremist fanaticism goes far beyond just faith, so I don't for a moment presume that they represent the religious.
As for why I like fantasy: Well actually, as a genre on the whole, I don't. But it's not because it's "irrational"... I believe you are well aware with my gripes with silly names full of apostrophes placed in neverending stories that try to surpass Tolkien but only do so in length, not substance. I dislike much modern fantasy because a lot of it, to me, just isn't very good writing. However, if someone asked me about my favourite works of literature, a number of fantasy titles would make it onto the list. Off the top of my head: - LOTR - Harry Potter - Alice's Adventures in Wonderland / Through the Looking-Glass - The Duncton Chronicles - The Princess Bride - The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (and several of the sequels) And this would be woefully incomplete without naming cinema's crowning achievement in fantasy, Star Wars. Now that I look at the works I've named, I can discern several patterns: - Potter, Alice and Oz are all bound to the Earth we know in a very loose way. They all involve central characters who are children freed from the bonds of a dreary reality in a world where anything can happen: flying monkeys, living chessmen, high-speed football on broomsticks - the possibilities are vast and wondrous. I single these works out in particular not only because of the almost unsurpassed imagination behind them, but the sharp wit of the prose. They are funny, involving, whimsical, and capable of drawing me into a re-read when I so much as pick them up. GW, as you discuss fantasy in terms of faith, I doubt you were referring to this sort of fantasy. - Very similarly, I'm not sure you were referring to the Princess Bride vein of fantasy, either. - I never found LOTR to be a very religious work at all. If anything, it is a very earthly adventure; the central characters are ordinary hobbits drawn into a much larger world for a time, but the key thing to remember is that while these adventures changed them, they were ultimately not part of that much grander world. As for the adventure itself, I was drawn by the complexity of the plot, the depth/freedom of interpretability offered by the text, and just how much I missed the characters by the time I was done. You will note that I did not name The Silmarillion. - Star Wars took every cliché about fantasy fiction (specifically with regards to setting) and threw them out the window, keeping the plot and depth that appealed to me in much the same way with LOTR. It is an undeniable promotion of faith overcoming the artifice and machinations of man, for purposes both good and evil. The spiritual aspects did appeal to me in a way I will cover below. - Duncton is about the most religious of all the works I named - very focused on faith, and largely built around religious wars among communities of moles that live in the English countryside and worship Stonehenge-esque monoliths. There is even a martyred Christ figure at one point, and it was rather obvious. But the execution of this seemingly ridiculous concept was done with just enough storytelling finesse that I loved it.
__________________
All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien |
06-07-2003, 02:49 AM | #36 |
Fowl Administrator
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 53,420
|
But allow me to generalize beyond just my works of preference, and speak of faith, divine order, fate, all that jazz.
Fate and destiny appeal to me in fiction because if used properly, foreshadowing is a very powerful literary device. If you look at Star Wars, a good chunk of the piece is about struggling with destiny, and that comprises some of the best parts of the entire saga. A lot of works considered "great" in their own way (though not necessarily favourites of mine) use predestination quite powerfully. Shakespeare and Sophocles come to mind right away. And for the record, I completely disagree with the premise of the ancient Greek tragedies that divine law supersedes human law and rationalism, but that doesn't suddenly make the stories they tell any less effective. Characters with a lot of faith can be very interesting to follow, especially when you see them struggle with it, or gradually defined by its implications. Once again I point to Star Wars: not only does it focus on a supernatural power of sorts, but you see characters using and abusing it, and shaped by its lasting effects. To me, these were pretty legendary characters. Dare I mention the Indiana Jones films? A common theme in all three of them is that faith conquers all, and that man should never aspire to be the conqueror in question. Some characters are driven by belief alone, while others are propelled by lust and greed; and all of these factors unite in stories that go miles and miles beyond run-of-the-mill action films, grand narratives of the supernatural with characters who are people. One thing I often praise Christianity for is that it brought us Raiders of the Lost Ark. I don't think that's a frivolous comment; in fact, I'm perfectly serious when I say that. However, GW, you are on the right track (as far as my views are concerned) about one thing: I don't like it when religion and faith take over a story's integral structure. This is a problem I have with Lewis' Narnia, that despite all its wonderment, it sometimes falls into the trap of playing second fiddle to Message. Thankfully, it more than makes up for this with its various merits. Actually, Narnia is a bad example, because it actually is pretty good. What, in conclusion, can we say about fantasy? It's fundamentally about expanding possibilities, opening the doors to imagination. And let's face it, the Bible is exemplary if taken as an epic of pseudo-historical fantasy fiction. It's practically unparalleled! It's a very exciting thing to see such a thorough motivic exploration of the sins of humanity, in the same way LOTR is such an applicable critique of the Power concept. I've been reading the marvelous Don Quixote lately, so I'll point something out: practically all of the supporting characters see through the naivety of our gallant hero's belief that the perilous adventures of knights were all matters of fact. This does not preclude some of them from enjoying the fantasy stories of the day; in fact, many of these characters adore them! There is a huge difference between enjoying a story and believing that they actually happened. And for that reason, I find that fiction based on concepts of religion, faith, destiny, divine law, et cetera can be powerful for the exact same reasons the Bible has such wide appeal. My point is, regardless of whether the author or the reader are religiously minded, good storytelling is still good storytelling. As long as religion doesn't get in storytelling's way, it's okay. And if it supplements it? Wonderful.
__________________
All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien |
06-07-2003, 02:51 AM | #37 | |||
Corruptor
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Jozi SA
Posts: 1,885
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Don't wet yourself with excitement. |
|||
06-07-2003, 09:25 AM | #38 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
I can see what Gwai's overall point is, and logically it should be that way, which just goes to show that our tastes are not particularly logical.
And of course he is right in insisting on the "spiritual" or "faith" rather than "Christian" distinction; one of my favorites is the Taoist-based 'Earthsea' series by Ursula K. LeGuin. I don't know much about the modern Fantasy spawned by LoTR; most of my reading was in pre-Tolkien stuff. Some of it is "faith"-based - William Morris, George MacDonald, E.R. Eddison; some of it isn't - Lord Dunsany, Fritz Lieber. How do "spiritual" types regard science-fiction? How many Christians like avowedly atheist writers like Heinlein or Asimov or Clarke? Two good articles by SF author David Brin about Star Wars: http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feat.../15/brin_main/ and Tolkien: http://www.davidbrin.com/tolkienarticle1.html
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
06-07-2003, 02:17 PM | #39 | |
Fowl Administrator
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 53,420
|
Quote:
Heh, it's interesting that you bring up David Brin, because after having read much of his material before, the guy really doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. But strangely enough, the links you pointed out are actually relevant.
__________________
All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien |
|
06-07-2003, 02:32 PM | #40 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
Gwai, I would still like you to answer my question about idolitry. Or any religious Christian can also. |
|