Evil in Middle-Earth

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

what do you base this upon?

Offhand, I base this upon the fact that Tolkien was a Christian. Free will is a very Christian concept so I'm guessing that (even if he didn't mention it explicitly) Tolkien intended it. But I'll look up a quote for you on that matter (eventually )

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

You have a point though Attalus, i've even ventured a few defenses of melkor in the past... i think souls who are very passionate about life and knowledge of it can get easily caught up in 'evil', though there are certainly ones like gandalf, who was able to temper his desires with compassion

i've mentioned before in feanor's defense that one can't discount the loss of his mother and later his father in the events that followed... not necessarily a justification, but a reason behind his 'evil'

celegorm and curufin are a bit tougher... they were some pretty nasty elf-types

I think Fëanoro's main problem was intense egotism. I am quite sure that the loss of his mother was a cause of this, and jealousy at his father's re-marriage, but being so gifted and a prima donna to boot caused him to regard his own concerns as central and everybody else, even the Valar, probably even Eru's, as secondary or even of no importance. This is a good working definition of evil, even before his rebellion, and then his latent sociopathy turned to violence. He had to have those jewels, no matter how many Teleri or anyone else had to die for it. As for Curufin and Celegorm, in addition to their kidnapping Lúthien, they caused Finrod's expulsion from Nargothond. Celegorm's dog deserted him, for crying out loud! A fellow has to be pretty bad for that to happen.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Offhand, I base this upon the fact that Tolkien was a Christian. Free will is a very Christian concept so I'm guessing that (even if he didn't mention it explicitly) Tolkien intended it. But I'll look up a quote for you on that matter (eventually )

from the sil:

(voice of eru) 'But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else

from this one could conclude that only men had free will

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

from this one could conclude that only men had free will

That's inconclusive (to me at least!).
I'll elaborate on my opinion later...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So you are saying elves, dwarves and hobbits etc. didn't have a mind of their own.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I beg to differ. Illuvatar created free will for the Ainur (and later for Elves and Men) it's from this free will that evil sprouted. So you might say that Illuvatar allowed the existence of evil but NOT created it.

How could Iluvatar not create evil if it was inherent in free will?

I think you are right however, in that free will exists in Arda for all its inhabitants, and that Middle Earth is heavily influenced by the fact that Tolkien was a Christian.

[Beren3000]

Ok, here's my full opinion, brownjenkins:

Even if the Music was "as fate" to all other creatures, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't have free will. The Music just predicted their lives and their choices but didn't influence them in anyway. It's the same in Christianity. God knows our every step, our every choice; but that doesn't mean we're not free-willed. It just means that God has the power to know all of our actions beforehand without His influencing them.

[brownjenkins]

probably very much as tolkien saw things, thanks

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Artanis

How could Iluvatar not create evil if it was inherent in free will?

I think you are right however, in that free will exists in Arda for all its inhabitants, and that Middle Earth is heavily influenced by the fact that Tolkien was a Christian.

Iluvatar did not create evil. He created beings with free will who could turn apart from Him, value other things more highly than Him, and when they made that choice, that crreated evil.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Iluvatar did not create evil. He created beings with free will who could turn apart from Him, value other things more highly than Him, and when they made that choice, that crreated evil.

You are probably right.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Just like Beren has explained to us

[Fewin Greenleaf]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

This subject has been touched on in other threads but I thought (well RtB suggested) that I should open a thread about Evil in Middle-Earth.
What is evil and what makes a person evil.
I think a person is evil if they commit evil deeds and do not repent. What does everybody else think.

all things that do not conform with God's laws are evil.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I woldn't say evil. Wrong yes but not evil.

[Fewin Greenleaf]

i still say they're evil. theft, murder, rape, etc...aren't all these evil? you mean, when a person kills another, he merely commits something wrong and does not commit something evil?
yes, they're wrong. they're wrong because they're evil.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No but other things. Lying. When you lie does that make you an evil person?
Boromir commited wrong but he wasn't evil.

[Fewin Greenleaf]

Absolutely! When one lies, there is in him a deliberate intent to do wrong, to cause deception, to damage another individual's person. What is in the mind of a person lying is something that is evil.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well everyone's told a lie before. Does that make everybody evil.

[Fewin Greenleaf]

No, lying does not automatically make a person evil. It is what he does that is evil.

[Haradrim]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

from the sil:



from this one could conclude that only men had free will

Has anyone read Foundation by Isaac Asimov. In the book the character the book is based upon, Hari Seldon, is able to predict the course a large group of people will take but he can not predict the fate of one man because his mathematics used to predict can not be that specific.

I think it is much the same way for the "fate" of elves, and dwarves. (sidenote Hobbits descend from Humans so I think they are considered human. Thanks BoP) BAck to the fate thing. Elves, and dwarves as a whole have their fate already written down. THeir race has a path to take and that is the path they will take. However the individual elf or dwarf has the ability to shape his/her own life.

For Men I think that their part wasnt already made so they could shape their lives as an individual and as a race. Also I could be wrong but didnt it say somewhere in the Silmarillion that the role of men in the last battle was unknown or something to that extent.

For those who didnt understand what I was saying by those paragraphs meaning the difference between predicting a large body of people and individual I highly suggest Foundation by Isaac Asimov. It is a great book and very fun.

Phew that was a lot of writing....

[Artanis]

I liked that parallell to the Foundation series Haradrim. Though I don't agree that Hari Seldon's theories can be applied to Middle Earth.