Character analysis: Eöl, Maeglin

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Radagst the Brown

But can you say what he did wrong in that time? (befroe Huor and hurin arrived to Gondolin)

From The Silmarillion, chapter 23: Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

Maeglin spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the King, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart; and at the last he rejected the bidding of ULmo and refused his counsel.

And he did that just out of spite (he hasn't yet been captured by the Orcs); so he acted as an evil counsellor (comparable to Grima in LOTR) and caused Turgon to refuse the advice of Ulmo, eventually bringing about the fall of Gondolin. Now that certainly is wrong.

Here's another quote, from chapter 16: Of Maeglin

But as the years passed still Maeglin watched Idril, and waited, and his love turned to darkness in his heart. And he sought the more to have his will in other matters, shirking no toil or burden, if he might thereby have power.
Thus it was in Gondolin; and amid all the bliss of that realm, while its glory lasted, a dark seed of evil was sown.

So Maeglin acted evilly long before he was captured by Orcs, it was in him from the start, Idril was just the catalyst.

Originally Posted by Radagast the Brown

Do you want to open a thread, that defines 'evil' in lotR? Becuase we're way OT right now.

Although not adressed to me, I think it's a very good idea! Start the thread and I'll post in it. If you don't feel like it, then I'll start it later.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

From The Silmarillion, chapter 23: Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

And he did that just out of spite (he hasn't yet been captured by the Orcs); so he acted as an evil counsellor (comparable to Grima in LOTR) and caused Turgon to refuse the advice of Ulmo, eventually bringing about the fall of Gondolin. Now that certainly is wrong.

But that's only after Hurin and Huor came to Gondolin.

Here's another quote, from chapter 16: Of Maeglin

So Maeglin acted evilly long before he was captured by Orcs, it was in him from the start, Idril was just the catalyst.

Yes, that's what I was looking for. Still, I don't think everything he did in Gondolin was bad, and evil, but only the more later. Because although the seed was sown long before Tuor came, only then the seed grew and took over him, if you know what I mean.

Although not adressed to me, I think it's a very good idea! Start the thread and I'll post in it. If you don't feel like it, then I'll start it later.

Do you? Well... I actually think it would be better if you start it, and I'll post in it, if you don't mind. (pleassssseeee )

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But he betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth. Why does someone with many good sides do that.

Morgoth can be VERY persusive to captives,not every one is a Hurin. He used maglin jealousy and envy as the door to corrupt Maeglin, and well all his (Morgoths) power to dominate wills.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But surely an elf can resist thows powers better than a mortal man.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But surely an elf can resist thows powers better than a mortal man.

Maeglin, as Lefty said if you're read his post, was 'infected' by jelousy of Tuor, and when Morgoth promised him Idril and be the ruler of Gondolin, he waas persuaded by the will of Morgoth. Huor didn't have any jealous nor will to rule toerhs, and was alreayd married.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But surely an elf can resist thows powers better than a mortal man.

I see no such inherent differential. The Noldor may have some advantage in that they are more Knowledgeble about Morgoth. Humans may have some sort advantage (In this context of being turned) becuase Elves can survive and thus recieve more physical torture.

[Artanis]

Much to respond to here, I'll start at the beginning.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I'd say he was a villain, I can't see any good sides to his personality. I think Tolkien intended to show that by all the evil that Eöl caused. He killed Aredhel, and one of the two swords he forged became the Black Sword in Turin's hand, and we all know what THAT did Then again, we don't know that much about Eöl's personality, do we?

I too have a hard time finding some goodness in Eöl. There must have been something though, that made Aredhel stay with him for so long, and even get a child with him. At least he didn't have that condencending attitude towards the Dwarves as otherwise many of the Elves had.

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I don't think he loved him as in father to son love. He probably saw in Maeglin a perpetuation of his own name and probably someone who would go on to have great power. Perhaps that's why he wanted him out of Gondolin; for whatever reason he hated the Noldor, he didn't want his son influenced by them.

I agree that he didn't love Maeglin as a son. I think he was proud of him to begin with, because he turned out to be much alike to himself, clever in the smithies, farsighted, strong and fair. But to me it is not love to deny a son to meet his mother's kin. And it is certainly not love to try to kill him, pride and hate was far greater.

More later ...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It showed he really did hate the Noldor, to try and kill his son instead of having him live with his wifes kin.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I don't think Eol can be considered to be entirely evil. I think he fell in love with his wife, and even though he didn't exactly capture her through any fair means, she stayed willingly enough with him.

I don't think Eöl really loved Aredhel. She was a fair thing that he wanted to possess, nothing more. He took her to wife by force, and that is a truly wicked deed among Elves. And in Gondolin, when she was wounded by the spear, if he had loved her then, wouldn't he have spoken about the poison? But he didn't, and he never displayed any sign of repentance.

[Radagast The Brown]

I disagree. I think he did love her, and didn't say the spear was posioned becasue of his anger. I'm not sure, but it seems to me that he didn't really care what will happen - as he knew he's going to be killed without ask for forgiveness from the Golodhrim, and prefered Aredhel to come with him to the Halls of Mandos.
Which reminded me... How much time do you think Eöl will stay in the Halls on Mandos? Relatively to otehr elves, that is.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Discussion about Eol
Was he just a bad, evil villain, or did he have some good sides?

I'm not sure he could be classed as bad or evil. Certainly little if any good came from his actions. I look at Eol as an Elf that has the equivalence of what would be mental illness in humans. I think he, like many of the Teleri was bitter over the Kinslaying and hated that the Noldor had returned

Did he love Aredhel?

Not sure on this one. I think he cared for her. I find it to be an interesting twist in the story that for all his hatred and bitterness toward the Noldor, that he would marry a Noldorin princess, and father a child that was part Noldorin.

Did he love Maeglin his son?

I think he did, but again, his hatred of the Noldor and his pride fueled the fire. His love for his son and wife was clouded by his anger and pride.

Why did he come to shun the light of day?

I think like many of the Elves, he had a love of craft. In his case his interest in craft was like the Dwarves. He befriended them and learned much. He also wanted to be free to do as he pleased and to go where he would without restrictions, which was why he asked Thingol for leave after the Girdle of Melian was raised.

What do you think about his grudge against the Noldor? Can you sympathise with it?

I can sympathize, but once the Noldor were there, and he chose to marry one, he would have been better off to try at the very least to accept his Noldorin in-laws

Do you feel sorry for him?

No.

Discussion about Maeglin:
Was he just a bad, evil villain, or did he have some good sides?

I think he started out with some good. It says that he loved his mother more, but let's face it, he was his father's son.

Did he love his father?

I don't think so. It says that he resented him for keeping his mother from her kin. He resented that his father seemed to keep them prisoner.

Did he love Idril, or was she just a way to gain more power in Gondolin?

I think he mistook love for infatuation, but I think he was received well by Turgon, and he saw that he had a place of favour in Gondolin and in the eyes of the king, Idril, or no.

He had the power in his voice to move those who heard him, and overthrow those who withstood him. In what way did he use this power?

Very charismaticly.

Why is it that no one, except Idril, perceived his dark mood and his secret hatred?

Idril was 1/2 Vanyarin. Was not the Vanyar very perceptive and wary of Morgoth in Valinor?

Is there any excuse for his treachery?

No, only if you wish to atribute it to his tainted fea or his mental status.

Is there any excuse for his attack on Idril and Eärendel?

Same answer as above. I think perhaps if Aradhel had lived, we may have seen a different Maeglor.

Do you feel sorry for him?

In some ways.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I disagree. I think he did love her, and didn't say the spear was posioned becasue of his anger. I'm not sure, but it seems to me that he didn't really care what will happen - as he knew he's going to be killed without ask for forgiveness from the Golodhrim, and prefered Aredhel to come with him to the Halls of Mandos.

Yes, he expected to die, but when he tries to take his family with him into death, then he is thinking only about himself imo, and he does not care what Aredhel and Maeglin may think and feel about the matter. This is murder, not love.

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

Which reminded me... How much time do you think Eöl will stay in the Halls on Mandos? Relatively to otehr elves, that is.

I suppose it depends on his will to repent. Longer than most other Elves I should think, but shorter than Fëanor.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I'm not sure he could be classed as bad or evil. Certainly little if any good came from his actions. I look at Eol as an Elf that has the equivalence of what would be mental illness in humans. I think he, like many of the Teleri was bitter over the Kinslaying and hated that the Noldor had returned

I often feel it is a pity that Tolkien abandoned the idea of Eöl being a former Angband captive. That would have served to explained a lot about his mood, and also explained to a greater degree his grudge against the Noldor who, in his opinion, was responsible for Morgoth's return to Middle Earth.
Mental illness - do you by that mean a tainted fëa?

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Not sure on this one. I think he cared for her. I find it to be an interesting twist in the story that for all his hatred and bitterness toward the Noldor, that he would marry a Noldorin princess, and father a child that was part Noldorin.

It is a possibility that he took Aredhel to wife in order to humiliate her and all her kin. But i don't really think so. Perhaps you are right, maybe he did come to care about her during the years. I'd like to think that he did, I'd like to think that he experienced love in his life. One thing in favour of your opinion is that they often wandered far in the woods together during the nights. Sounds romantic to me. And if she had not been content and he had not treated her well, I guess she would have found a way to escape long before her son was born.

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Very charismaticly.

True. What I was thinking of when I asked that question was: Maeglin was gifted in many ways. He was highly skilled in smithcraft, a fact that Gondolin had great use of. He was a valiant warrior as was seen in the Nirnaeth. But I think it was his charisma more than anything that enabled him to get respect from the average Elf in Gondolin. It's such a pity that he often used this charisma to give bad councel to Turgon, especially at the arrival of Tuor, when Turgon refused to follow Ulmo's advice, and during the attack on Gondolin.

What strikes me when I read about Eöl and Maeglin is that they must both have been very lonely most of their lives. If nothing else, that makes me feel sorry for them.

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Idril was 1/2 Vanyarin. Was not the Vanyar very perceptive and wary of Morgoth in Valinor?

Were they? I can't remember anything said about that, but you may be right.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Mental illness - do you by that mean a tainted fëa?

Well, yes. I suppose it could be thought of as the mind and the fea are one. The taint of the fea would influence the thought or decision making process of the mind.

It is a possibility that he took Aredhel to wife in order to humiliate her and all her kin. But i don't really think so. Perhaps you are right, maybe he did come to care about her during the years. I'd like to think that he did, I'd like to think that he experienced love in his life. One thing in favour of your opinion is that they often wandered far in the woods together during the nights. Sounds romantic to me. And if she had not been content and he had not treated her well, I guess she would have found a way to escape long before her son was born.

Well, Aradhel was Noldorin and the Noldor were a restless lot as shown even by her own actions in not being content to stay in Gondolin. Eol may have lured her to him, but she did remain. However, that Noldorin restlessness came upon her, and with that and the fact that Eol seemed so controling and prevented her from seeing her kin, made her determined to leave him when she saw an open opportunity, and return to Gondolin.

It's such a pity that he often used this charisma to give bad councel to Turgon, especially at the arrival of Tuor, when Turgon refused to follow Ulmo's advice, and during the attack on Gondolin.

Well, I'm not certian that all of Turgon's bad decisions can be laid at Maeglin's doorstep. It says that Turgon had become prideful and still trusted in the strength of Gondolin. Maeglin may have been influential, but some of this has to lay with Turgon. Reminds me of the Turin-Orodreth relationship.

Were they? I can't remember anything said about that, but you may be right.

From the Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977.

Now in his heart Melkor most hated the Eldar, both because they were fair and joyful and because in them he saw the reason for the arising of the Valar, and his own downfall. Therefore, all the more did he feign love for them and seek their friendship, and he offered them the service of his lore and labour in any great deed that they would do. The Vanyar held him in suspicion, for they dwelt in the Light of the Trees and were content...

From: Morgoth's Ring, The Annals of Aman, The Histories of Middle-earth series.

And many of the Noldor, because of their desire of all knowledge, hearkened to him and took delight in his teaching. But the Vanyar would have no part with him.

From the Later Quenta Silmarillion.

Most fair of all was Melkor to the Eldar, and he aided them in many works, if they would let him. The Vanyar, indeed, the people of Ingwe, held him in suspicion; for Ulmo had warned them and they heeded his words.

[Artanis]

Some good quotes there SGH. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Well, I'm not certian that all of Turgon's bad decisions can be laid at Maeglin's doorstep. It says that Turgon had become prideful and still trusted in the strength of Gondolin. Maeglin may have been influential, but some of this has to lay with Turgon. Reminds me of the Turin-Orodreth relationship.

Aaahh - I don't seem to be able to express myself. I didn't mean to take any responsibility away from Turgon. But Maeglin reminds me of Fëanor: both were clever and highly skilled, and both used their oratorial gifts to sway people into taking the wrong desicions. How very different the course of history could have been if they had found a better use of their gifts.

[Valandil]

In general, I have felt sorry for Maeglin. Not completely though.

While the parallel isn't complete, I just now see some similarities with him and Grima Wormtongue - oddly enough.

Each desired a 'daughter' (in one case an actual niece, but treated as daughter) of a king, was in relative close counsel with that king - and betrayed their kingdom to an enemy - with the promise of rulership of that kingdom and possession of the woman they desired.

Pretty much ends there though, I think...

[Beren3000]

Discussion about Maeglin:

Originally Posted by Artanis

Was he just a bad, evil villain, or did he have some good sides?

I would consider him evil. As I've quoted before, Tolkien said about him that "a dark seed of evil was sown" in Gondolin. Moreover, if we established that his father was evil, then he should be considered evil as he was his "father's son" as somebody else mentioned.

Originally Posted by Artanis

Did he love his father?

Contrary to Eöl's attitude, I think that Maeglin did love his father. If he turned out to be so much like him, he must've considered him a role model or something. As to his refusal of returning back to Nan Elmoth with him, I think it was because he so admired Gondolin and mooned over Idril that he could imagine no other life.

Originally Posted by Artanis

Did he love Idril, or was she just a way to gain more power in Gondolin?

I think he really did love her. He was too zealous and fervent in his attempts to prove otherwise. I could see SGH's point about his mixing love and infatuation, but I'm not so sure about it!

Originally Posted by Artanis

He had the power in his voice to move those who heard him, and overthrow those who withstood him. In what way did he use this power?

I'd say that he used it pretty much as Grima did with Theoden, to infest the king's thoughts. Then again, I agree with SGH that he's not to be blamed for all the bad decisions of Turgon. Some of these decisions were due to Turgon's suspicion of treachery because of the Doom of Mandos.

Originally Posted by Artanis

Why is it that no one, except Idril, perceived his dark mood and his secret hatred?

SGH already explained that. It reminds me of Galadriel's mistrust of Sauron in Eregion.

Originally Posted by Artanis

Is there any excuse for his treachery?

Fear of Morgoth for one. But I can't help but think that part of him really coveted the throne of Gondolin and the hand of Idril.

Originally Posted by Artanis

Is there any excuse for his attack on Idril and Eärendel?

None at all, it was just spiteful!

Originally Posted by Artanis

Do you feel sorry for him?

All in all...no!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Beren3000

I would consider him evil. As I've quoted before, Tolkien said about him that "a dark seed of evil was sown" in Gondolin.

I have always thought that that quote ran a little deeper than just referring to Maeglin. Turgon was under the Doom of Mandos as were all the exiles due to the Kinslaying. We could consider his decision to execute Eol a kinslaying, thus binding the Doom of Mandos tighter about him and his realm. This was the very reason why Orodreth forbid the people of Nargothrond to kill the sons of Feanor.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I have always thought that that quote ran a little deeper than just referring to Maeglin. Turgon was under the Doom of Mandos as were all the exiles due to the Kinslaying. We could consider his decision to execute Eol a kinslaying, thus binding the Doom of Mandos tighter about him and his realm. This was the very reason why Orodreth forbid the people of Nargothrond to kill the sons of Feanor.

Yes, I have also wondered if the execution of Eöl was unlawful, an act of revenge from Turgon's side. At Curufin's little tete-a-tete with Eöl he says that by the laws of the Eldar he may not slay him. When Maglor and Maedhros laid their hands on the Silmarils and killed the guards, Eonwë declares that they may not be slain.

[Radagast The Brown]

Although I do agree that it might not have been the most lawful decidsion - Tolkein doesn't say anything about kinslaying in that part, nor saying that it was somehow wrong. And it also seemed to me like everyone knew Eöl deserved to die - since Idril and Aredhel begged Turgon not to kill him... I think all Gondolin thought he deserves to die.
I don't think that this kinslaying bounds him to the doom of Manods, as he didn't do it to get the Silmarils, like all the other 3 kinslaying. (sounds logical to me...)