12-12-2004, 01:24 AM | #21 | |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
In either case, IMHO it holds that by trying to do good, by intervening Luke's efforts would result in the exact opposite occurring. The manner in which he falls to the Dark Side might be irrelevent, actually, the only important thing being that he would fall. So... where were we? Is this about to turn into a theological debate?
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
|
12-12-2004, 02:16 AM | #22 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
There is no evil done by using the Force for good and trying to rescue his friends. Obi-Wan was using the Force for good in exactly that way in Episode 4, but he was a fully trained Jedi Knight, not capable of being turned to the Dark Side. Luke was a young hotshot teenage pilot- not someone very capable of taking on an enemy of the likes of Vader and winning. I think the interpretation I've always held of that part of the movie holds quite steady. Remember that when Luke was getting into his ship to leave Dagobah, Yoda and Obi-Wan continually were warning him not only about the dangers of the Dark Side, but about the dangers of Darth Vader in particular. Yoda said, "Strong is Vader! Bind what you have learned! Save you it can!" as his parting plea to get Luke to stay. Luke wasn't experienced enough, wasn't trained enough, to handle what was out there. Rescuing his friends might be a good thing, but Luke was just not ready.
Anyway, I'm really tired and busy at the moment, so I'll just leave the discussion there .
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-12-2004 at 02:17 AM. |
12-12-2004, 03:18 AM | #23 | ||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Okay then, we can continue tomorrow. Watching The Empire Strikes Back at 2 in the morning is never a good idea...
Anyway, I got past the Dagobah part, and your interpretation does hold. Quote:
IMO, Obi-wan did not use the Force in the way that Luke was trying to. My half-asleep brain cannot pinpoint any parts where in Episode IV Obi-Wan directly used the Force to destroy someone using the Dark Side. In fact, he allowed himself to be killed. Quote:
Ah. Another point supporting the idea that the Force is in balance when the Dark Side and the "light" are equal. It is not simply the Dark which is considered a disturbance. The Emperor mentions about Luke that "There is a disturbance in the Force." For my own part (don't remember if I've said this yet), I do not believe that the Force is good or evil. Yoda alludes to the idea that the Force is simply the compilation of all life (don't remember the exact words). It seems to me that the Force is beyond good or evil, and is both and neither. Eh... I think I had more to say, but I honestly don't remember. Time to finish the movie and go to bed. We'll continue this later. [edited] Somehow I missed the whole end!
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman Last edited by ElemmÃrë : 12-12-2004 at 03:19 AM. |
||
12-12-2004, 04:26 PM | #24 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||||
12-12-2004, 05:32 PM | #25 | |||||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
Thus... we find them constantly being rescued by other people. Quote:
Would you like to hear my little theory on that as well? I think you're just trying to annoy me, knowing that I can't stand the prequels. This is going to be an interesting debate, with you sticking to one group of movies and me to the other. Quote:
Quote:
While undoubtedly the Emperor probably did find Luke's strength disturbing, I believe that he was referring to the fact that his very presence and strength was causing a disturbance in the Force by causing the balance to shift more towards the light. Quote:
Another note of interest: In ESB, Yoda announces that he will be unable to teach Luke because the boy has no patience. Patience seems to be a common theme throughout, and a necessary quality to be at one with the Force. Look at Han, for example. All throughout ESB he was unable to slow down and unwilling to listen to the people around him who could have told him time and again what was wrong (primarily, the fact that the hyperdrive never seemed to work). It always seems that someone knows about these problems, but nobody slows down enough to listen to them. While a lack of patience is neither evil nor falling to the Dark Side, I believe it shows that one is not at one with the Force.
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
|||||
12-12-2004, 07:57 PM | #26 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Obi-Wan: "You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again." Luke: "I can't kill my own father." Obi-Wan: "Then the Empire has already won." In the same conversation, Obi-Wan even advised Luke not to try turning Anakin back to the light side. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think there is any problem with the Han Solo quote. If he was mistaken in his assumptions about how the Force was supposed to behave, I don't think the movie-makers would have included his statement in the movie. All it serves to do is distract movie audiences from the real way the Force works. The question was whether the Force exists or not- not how it works. Technically you're right- Han Solo could have been goofed up in his impressions of how the Force works. Yet there's no reason for the movie-makers to make one of the characters make those mistakes. I'm certain the movie-makers didn't intend Han to be wrong in about how the Force works- he was simply wrong in that it does exist. The question they were debating was whether or not the Force exists- not how it works. I think I agree a good deal with your comments about patience. Yoda said it himself. "Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things." Patience is important to true attunement with the Force. With the Light Side anyway .
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||
12-12-2004, 10:04 PM | #27 | |||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
The fact of the matter is that Luke did not kill Vader. "Do or do not. There is no try." Quote:
Quote:
And thus we are brought full circle and back to the debate at hand. I actually think it was possible that the Force was out of balance when the Jedi Order was at its height. Currently, I have two theories on the whole matter, one which rides upon this, and one which does not. Now. My original theory revolves around the idea that the "light" side of the force is comparable to the Taoist "yang", the positive energy of the universe, along with a lot of other things. You have to remember that a lot of ideas in Star Wars are borrowed from Eastern philosophies, especially Chinese Taoism. If you want to know more about this before we continue debating, I'll post it later. By equating the Force with the Tao in this manner, the Dark Side is equivalent to the "yin," negative energy and so forth. According to Taoist philosophy, one must not strive or favour either side over the other, but seek balance. This is where Taoism comes into conflict with the Jedi Knights, who are obviously favouring the "light" side at the expense of the "dark" side. One interpretation is that this means that the Force is out of balance, due to the actions of the Jedi, leading to the stagnantation of the Old Republic and a return to balance brought on by the obviously negative actions of Vader and Palpatine. Or... maybe not. Here's my other theory: The Force may be equated to the Tao, but the "light" and Dark Side cannot be equated to yang and yin. I've begun to edge more towards this theory in part because I've never yet heard a true Jedi talk about the "light" side of the Force, but only about the Force itself. This theory goes that a true Jedi, rather than seeking towards good, seeks towards balance between the dual aspects of the Force. Taoist philosophy is very wary of Good vs. Evil, so I am reluctant to label the two sides of the Force in such a manner. Instead, the Jedi seek balance between aspects of the Force, something that could be described as "good". For whatever reasons they might have, the Sith edge towards either extreme, and by doing so, fall into the Dark Side. It is not perfectly analogous to Taoism, but then again, the Force is based on Taoism, rather than being Taoism itself.
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
|||
12-12-2004, 10:22 PM | #28 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Okay. Interesting theories .
When the Jedi Order was at its height, Obi-Wan called Darth Maul a "disturbance in the Force". That happened in the very beginning of Episode 1. Maul would not have been a disturbance in the Force if he was actually helping to ease the imbalance in favor of the light side. He should not have been detected at all as a disturbance. However, I think it is apparent from the movies that the Jedi are always seeking for the good. Doing good has turned out badly for the young unprepared Jedi, for the simple fact that they are young and unprepared. When a more experienced Jedi acts, the same problem does not exist. See Obi-Wan in "Attack of the Clones" as an excellent example of this. While tempted greatly by Lord Dooku, he refused to turn to the Dark Side. Contrast that strength with Anakin and Luke in the Episode 2s of the two separate trilogies. Luke and Anakin weren't participating in "extremism", and in my opinion, neither were the Sith. The Sith purposely chose the Dark Side, because it was much easier to gain great power through that source. To support my own theory there are Obi-Wan's comments about the Force being able to "control your actions", Han's comments about "one all powerful Force controlling everything", Qui-Gon's comments that Jedi should follow the will of the Force, which implies that it has a will, a form of intelligence, and a purpose for good. The Jedi always strive to do good, rather then appearing to simply seek balance between good and evil. Remember that the Sith always are portrayed doing evil and the good Jedi are always portrayed as striving for good. In my opinion, anyway . If the Force is good and has a will for good, but can be used by others for evil, then that is a use against the Force's nature. An act against the nature of the Force can easily be termed and "imbalance", don't you think?
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-12-2004 at 10:25 PM. |
12-13-2004, 12:05 AM | #29 | |||||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
Quote:
A more experienced Jedi, in contrast, seldom acts at all. When A New Hope opens, Obi-Wan Kenobi has been in hermitage for "x" years. Yoda has withdrawn to Dagobah. Neither actively takes part in the battles. Even in the Death Star, Kenobi serves more as a guide. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So, I'm saying that the Force is and has a will. The way one uses it is up to the user. An act against its nature is an imbalance, perhaps, but do not forget that there is a "Dark Side" of the Force.
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
|||||
12-13-2004, 01:32 AM | #30 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
And I suppose that ends our discussion. I already responded to much of that earlier on. Some I agree with, of course.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-13-2004, 01:36 AM | #31 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
I wholly agree with Boggy there. I've always thought that the force just "is". As far as bringing balance to the force.... I'll admit that it perplexes me, but I've always thought that it was because Anakin/Emperor brought about the massive massacre against the jedi, and that it "evened" up the numbers, so to speak. Prolly completely wrong, but oh well.... it interests me!
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
12-13-2004, 04:16 AM | #32 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
It may all become clear in Episode 3.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-13-2004, 04:00 PM | #33 |
Elentári
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Africa
Posts: 727
|
I wouldn't count on it. I think Star Wars was meant to have some mysteries.
|
12-13-2004, 04:53 PM | #34 | |||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
|||
12-14-2004, 12:16 AM | #35 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I certainly was NOT conceding defeat . I simply found that most of those arguments in your most recent post I'd already responded to earlier on. I wasn't interested in covering old territory. I once did that when debating theology with my older sister. We went on and on and on and on and on, and then we went into the same territory again- the argument turned circular. At that point there became no point in pursuing it. This has been fun, though. I wouldn't have known precisely what I thought about the balance of the Force, to speak truly, if not for this discussion. Now I'm done with it though. Adios .
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-14-2004 at 12:18 AM. |
12-14-2004, 12:24 AM | #36 |
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
|
And such is the problem with all theological debate.
Namárië.
__________________
~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
02-26-2005, 09:49 PM | #37 | ||
Ring-smith
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Either walking across Rohan or riding through Fangorn forest
Posts: 2,000
|
Quote:
__________________
My status: Novice avatar maker. Elf lord Has no authority whatsoever Master of messing up
Thread killer Ring smith Merry Christmas! They'd never say that (Part 2) What happened to the dragon? |
||
03-23-2005, 04:08 PM | #38 | |
Elentári
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Africa
Posts: 727
|
Quote:
|
|
03-24-2005, 01:23 AM | #39 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Arthedian
Posts: 460
|
I think I have figured out the answer to my own question over time and research. The Sith are unbalanced as "me" said. The Jedi unlike the Sith are balanced in the force, they are not on the "Light Side" as most would infer. Also I came to realize that Anakin was "The One", he was the one who inevitably destroyed The Sith. It was because of his love for his children that the Dark Side bound was broken, anakin returned from Vader and conquered Darth Sidious. Even if Darth Vader hadn't died I think the galaxy would have balanced, Anakin had returned. There was, after Sidious died, two remaining Jedi, Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker.
__________________
"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
03-24-2005, 04:49 PM | #40 |
Elentári
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Africa
Posts: 727
|
Good answer, sound logic to me. The only thing I'm baffled about is this: Yoda said that there's always 2, a master and an apprentince, but when Darth V was no more, there was only one sith left. I thought there has to be 2. Or was that the first step towards restoring the balance?
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Glorfindel's Prophecy | Haradrim | Lord of the Rings Books | 60 | 10-03-2008 12:44 PM |
Prophecy for the end of the world in 2012 | Spock | General Messages | 111 | 10-03-2006 12:38 AM |
Túrin and The Second Prophecy of Mandos | Maedhros | The Silmarillion | 4 | 02-24-2003 10:35 AM |
The Second Prophecy of Mandos | Nerdel | The Silmarillion | 12 | 09-29-2000 02:15 PM |
The nature of Prophecy in Middle-earth | bmilder | Lord of the Rings Books | 23 | 06-16-2000 04:10 AM |