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05-19-2008, 03:21 PM | #1 | ||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Ok, the response to Katrina. Big mistake. But it was also the fault of the Democrat governor who failed to convey the proper urgency. Quote:
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05-19-2008, 04:09 PM | #2 | |||||||||
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Look pal, you want to accuse me of being over-the-top because I used 'dumbocrats'? Take a look at your adjective throwing. "So so so many people in the know" is a lame reason for Bush's purported stupidity. (Imagine Rex, BJ, Gaffer being "in the know") Quote:
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Let's see, G.W. Bush has turned a national surplus into a mind-shattering deficit and practically ruined the U.S. Treasury. Never have as many American filed private bankrupcy as during Bush's reign. [/quote]
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05-19-2008, 04:21 PM | #3 |
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That less than mediocre way of arguing won't get you anywhere.
For all the comments you make about my comments (we could go on forever couldn't we?), the bottom-line is that when we start discussing the issues you really are confronted with a serious credibility problem. So let's discuss Iraq since you call it a success. Let's discuss Afghanistan, as you also call it a success. Where do you want to begin? 2001? 2002? Present? *And we can also discuss that speech if you like*
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05-19-2008, 05:02 PM | #4 | ||
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Let's talk Iraq. 1. First, two graphs that compare how much violence has gone down from 2006 to 2007: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive.../01/019573.php Now, 2007 was still violent, and here we are in 2008 in even better shape not only in regards to violence levels, but in progress by the Iraqi government. 2. From the AP, this story about governmental workings in Iraq. Notice especially this bit: Quote:
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05-19-2008, 02:34 PM | #5 |
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It's not as much ignoring, because that implies doing it willingly while knowing better, it's more not knowing. All we get to see is his blunders. Which are quite substantial.
You should hear one of my favourite teachers on Bush
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05-19-2008, 02:42 PM | #6 |
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True that. I don't think the media give an enough nuanced view of things. The only thing we hear about are the blunders. Consequently we (errenously?) think that Bush is nothing more than a complete failure. But rather than just joining in on the Bush bashing, maybe we could take it upon ourselves to be a little more critical to our societies' general view of Bush and make ourselves a view coloured by as little bias as possible.
Many would still end up hating Bush but then they'd have more concrete reasons to do so.
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05-19-2008, 02:51 PM | #7 | |
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There's a good reason why Bush is seen as incompetent. The reason? Because he IS incompetent. I just listed a number of points that underline his total domestic failure, and there are so many important benchmarks that didn't make that list, including his domestic surveillance controversy, and his spending rate (which is just mind-blowing, especially for a conservative) He is by all measures the worst president ever. That is not some biased, unuanced view, but a view held by so, so, so, so many people with the know.
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05-19-2008, 03:03 PM | #8 |
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Well, I really don't like Bush and I haven't seen much to prove his competence, but I have hardly seen news even trying to show something positive on him. I can remember only one moment in which he made a favourable impression on me, but alas I can't remember what or why, just that it did. >_<
And what you say on news not making the record: they might not actually make it, but they do suggest to show his record. If the media chooses to highlight 2 mistakes rather than 10 good actions, the public will think of those 2 mistakes to be his entire record. There must be some reason he got re-elected? Maybe it's all the Bush-bashing from abroad that gave Americans the idea that it's them against everyone else. And Bush as the victim, the proud model-American who stands up against all those mean other countries.
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05-19-2008, 03:23 PM | #9 |
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That 51 % of the American people decided to vote for Bush rather than Kerry in the re-election still suprises me to this day. But there are numerous reasons why he was re-elected, and it was as much Kerry's failure to launch an effective campaign on Bush's failures as it was the immense grassroot work the Republicans managed to get together in 2004.
But winning a re-election does not mean the domestic or foreign enterprises that someone has engaged in have been successful. Sometimes it's just the opposition that aren't effective enough. Italy's Berlusconi is a great example of that. Let's talk about the issues that the Bush administration have failed on, not the media coverage. The idea that the international media coverage of Bush has been bashing, unuanced and one-sided is simply wrong. There have been numerous instances where Bush has received media coverage that has put him in a favourable light. The best example that comes to mind is in the aftermath of 9/11. I am myself a shining example of the overall nuanced coverage of Bush for the last 8 years, having been largely optimistic on his behalf in 2000 and a few weeks into the War in Afghanistan. But it has been the incredibly, fantastic long run of failures by the Bush Administration that has caused media coverage to shift over on his failures. The Economist, one of the most respectable newspapers in the world, long gave Bush the benefit of the doubt, but over the course of his presidency it is of course impossible to ignore the sheer stupidity that the man shows. It's just breathtaking.
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05-19-2008, 03:38 PM | #10 | ||||
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Romano Prodi failed to convince anyone he had a handle on the situation. If you can't even hold a government together, that's a failure. Bush is not incompetent. He handled Afghanistan and the Invasion of Iraq extremely well. Both were successes. We hit serious trouble in the middle years in both those places, but thanks to Bush's stubbornness we're succeeding there. So much so that Democrat after Democrat has had to modify their "we're losing!!" message. I cite Nancy Pelosi's trip just yesterday (or saturday) where she told Maliki that we were still committed. If the Dumbocrats had had their way we'd be out, and Iran would be running the place. Quote:
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05-19-2008, 03:46 PM | #11 | |
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The notion that Iraq is a success is an obvious dilusion of reality. I do hope you get to revise your views in the course of time. Dumbocrats? I mean, c'mon, seriously? Iran running the place? Who was NOT in Iraq before the invasion of Iraq? That's right, the Iranians. Who was NOT in Iraq before the invasion of Iraq? That's right, Al Qa'ida Where are the WMD's? They're not there. How many million Iraq refugees After the invasion? 2 million + All major combat operations over? Nope... But let's face it, when someone chooses to support McCain, a guy that shouts 'Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran', confesses he has no substantial understanding of economics and displays total ignorance on any number of issues relating to the Middle East.. well that kind of says it for me
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05-19-2008, 04:02 PM | #12 |
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Oy! Let's keep it decent. No need to go name calling. >_<
But I do wonder why you call Iraq a success, Hector? What do you base that on?
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05-19-2008, 04:05 PM | #13 | |
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Basically I've had a couple of hundred discussions about the failures and (lack of) merits of the current administration, and we've come to 2008, and the lack of humility it displays, the continued seriously poor performance it keeps exhibiting, tells me we've come to the breaking point. I.e., there have been so, so many instances where the current admininistration could set things only slightly right, and then it goes ahead, full steam, and blows it, yet again, and again, and again. The latest example being only a few days old, with Bush' childish ranting in Jerusalem. It's frankly pathetic.
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05-19-2008, 04:20 PM | #14 | ||
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05-19-2008, 04:29 PM | #15 | |
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2) Violence is down dramatically, Al Qaeda in Iraq is now miniscule. 3) The Maliki government has asserted itself as being capable to take on the Mahdi Army in Basra and has forced the hand of Mophead Al-Sadr. 4) the government is making progress in domestic matters I know none of you know this because good news from Iraq isn't news for the major media outlets on TV...but it has been acknowledged by the NYT and the WaPo among others. It's not over by yet, but we're definitely on top. Not tentatively like last year, but really in good shape.
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05-19-2008, 04:32 PM | #16 | |
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And of course I find it fascinating that you (And I quote you) "know none of you know this because good news from Iraq isn't news for the major media outlets on TV"
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05-19-2008, 05:05 PM | #17 | ||
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05-19-2008, 05:10 PM | #18 | ||||
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Let's be clear about the question at hand.
You've been asked why you define Iraq as a success, and you've answered in 4 points. But the inescapable truth is that however much it would be alot 'nicer' to define success in new, 2008 terms, the reality is that the benchmarks for success were set not today, but in 2002 and 2003. That's the way the world works my friend. Quote:
The United States of America (along with mainly the UK) invaded Iraq in March 2003 on the pretense that Saddam Hussein's Baathist Iraq had WMD's and that he was likely to use them in the near future. In addition to this, the Bush Administration argued that the following were also goals: - Freeing the Iraqi people from a tyrant. - Spreading democracy in the Middle East. Thus, we have three important benchmarks to see success in Iraq. 1. The WMD's must be found, and must be shown to have been available for use. 2. The tyranny in Iraq must be removed. 3. Democracy must spread as an effect of the invasion of Iraq. Today in 2008 we see: 1. No WMD's, not today, not yesterday, not 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago. 2. The people of Iraq were freed from Saddam Hussein, but as so many news stories from Iraq, and interviews with Iraqis in Iraq show, the tyranny of Saddam Hussein has been replaced with a multiple of new tyranny's. Tyranny of fear, Tyranny of Al Qaeda, Tyranny of suicide bombings, Tyranny of house-to-house inspections by U.S. forces, Tyranny of Freedom of Movement, Tyranny of Deprivation of the Basic Necessities of a Society: Lack of water, Lack of electricity, Lack of food, etc. 3. The last one is a no-brainer. Democracy is in the Middle East is as futile as ever. Lebanon, Palestine, Iran, Egypt, Syria, etc, etc. But let's return to your point. Quote:
That is truly remarkable. The Iraqi people had nothing in common with Al Qaeda before the invasion. None of the suicide bombers in 9/11 were Iraqis. The fundamentalist Islamic views of Al Qaeda and its violent ways of death were non-existant in Iraq, and then 5 years on after the invasion, you are characterizing it as a success that they are turning away from it. Point 2: Quote:
Also please identify an acceptable level of Al Qaeda activity in Iraq. Point 3: Quote:
So here we have a governmental force and a non-governmental force fighting in a country where there is a 3rd force, the occupiers. This is happening 5 years after all major combat operations are over. So I'm asking you, what is the acceptable level of conflict between the government and non-governmental forces in Iraq? Are you seriously suggesting that the current level of violence in Iraq is a success? That is too vague for me to answer. What exactly is progress in domestic matters? What does that encompass? What successes can you name for the Iraqi people? I hope of course the answer you give takes into consideration the basic human rights promoted in the United Nations Human Rights Charter.
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05-19-2008, 06:26 PM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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News not making the record? If only it were true. Our media decided they were bored with Labour's one-party state so they bigged up the Tories' revamped (policy-free) image. Now the Labour government is running round with its pants down, in spite of a pretty strong record and we have clowns like Boris Johnson holding high office.
And I don't agree with the focus just being on the negatives. I think that our media really try to treat Bush with the respect that being the President of US deserves. However, it's an uphill struggle, even for Murdoch rags. I've followed US politics (from afar, admittedly) since the 1970s and I can't remember a worse president by pretty much any measure (unless you count faith-based, fact-averse politics as a positive). The only positive thing I can find to say about him is that he increased the amount of US aid to Africa. OK, some of it was tied to faith-based programmes, and some was handed straight to the favoured faith groups entrusted to deliver them, but still. |
05-19-2008, 04:22 PM | #20 |
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Hey guys, just a reminder to please stay civil.
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