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09-08-2004, 06:54 PM | #21 |
AngAdan
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JRRT notes in HoME says effectively that humans and elves are the same species geneticly, and were indistinguishable as infants, that the difference between them was the difference in their frear and that the spirit adapted the development of the body to better fit it. The biggest differnce in their spirits was that jumens had some place esle to go and elves did not. Thus the human spirit adapted the body for mortality an moving on, and the elvish spirit adapted the body of long life because it was bound to the Earth. He said the differences started become fairly noticeable around age 6 or 7.
Thus, once the being bound to the earth is removed from the spirits of Luthian and Arwen, their spirit will begin to readapt them to mortality and they should gradually become more human like and less efl like. Because they are fullly grown adults, the adaption smay take place more slowly than it does among children. Being genecticly the same species explains there being no problem with interbreeding. The sparseness and nature of this JRRT idea leaves enomours room to speculate about what a mixed human/elf would be or what there death fate was without the intevetion of the Valar to make them one or the other.
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09-09-2004, 02:46 AM | #22 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Interesting. Never seen that before.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-09-2004, 03:03 AM | #23 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Neither have I. That is, I read in Laws and Customs that children of Elves and Men could not be told apart during the first years, but that part with the fëa adapting the rhöa to fit better was new to me. Could you tell us where you found that Lefty?
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09-09-2004, 02:42 PM | #24 |
AngAdan
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I do not recall the location, I will try to find it in the index.
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09-09-2004, 03:00 PM | #25 |
AngAdan
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I have found some passing refenrence to it in OF DEATH AND THE SEVERANCE OF FRE AND HRONDO IN 'laws b' in Morgoths Ring page 219. But IIRC, it was more directly presneted elswhere, maybe thoses not discussing what would happen to a mortal few/hroa that live in Aman. Does anyone recall where that was.
Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 09-09-2004 at 03:06 PM. |
09-09-2004, 03:48 PM | #26 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Wasn't that in Morgoth's Ring too? Myths transformed, at the very end of the book, I think.
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09-09-2004, 04:12 PM | #27 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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That's what Lefty said.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 05:59 AM | #28 |
Elven Warrior
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I know thisis going to be a more or less Lord of the Rings question but I don't want to start a whole new thread for it. My question is, Beren and Luthien were the first Elf/Man marrige, correct? And from that line came Elrond and Elros, the half-elven! So... If Arwen, Elven, and Aragorn, Edain, had a son, Eldarion!, wouldn't he be half elven too? Or at the least on a similar level of Tar-Minyatur or Tar-Amandil!? Could Eldarion have in a way recreated a nobal race of New-Númenoreans!?
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09-12-2004, 06:42 AM | #29 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Well, one of the purposes of the marriage between Arwen and Aragorn was to renew the Elvish strain in the blood of Men.
Lets look at the maths: If we for simplicity say that Lúthien was 100% Elf and not half divine, then Dior was half Elven, Dior's daughter Elwing was 1/4 human, and Elwing's sons Elrond and Elros were 3/8 humans, since their father was Eärendil son of Idril and Tuor. That would make Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir 3/16 human and 13/16 elvish. Hardly half-elven anymore. (If anyone would like to compute the percentage of Elvish blood left in Aragorn, please go ahead ) But if we forget the maths, then I think the term Half-Elven denotes someone who by the grace of Eru has been given a choice of which of the two races to belong to. That was true for Elros and Elrond, and Elrond's children, but not for Eldarion.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 09-12-2004 at 06:44 AM. |
09-12-2004, 06:48 AM | #30 |
Elven Warrior
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Yet since Arwen choose to remain Elven she was then full elven, even though she can be considered, somehow, halfelven. And Aragorn who was by no means fully human had edain and elf in him as well So, their son would have been in an extreamly rough mathatics half and half. So he may not have been given the choice to be elven but that would then give him the comparrison to Tar-Minyatur not Elros. The already human form of Elros... as if Eldarion had the choice and made it? Also I think it is worth noting that Eldarion also has Maia in him! Melian, a maia become wife of Thingol and mother of Luthien! So both Aragorn and Arwen had part Maia in them! So if they can be considered related(Olorin and Melian) then Aragorn is related in a distant way to Gandalf!?
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-12-2004, 06:50 AM | #31 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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And to Sauron!
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 07:00 AM | #32 |
Elven Warrior
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You know, I have actually never once thought of that! I only think of Gandalf when I think of those kinds of relations but if it were that way then you're right! Sauron is Aragorns 183rd cousin! haha... interesting!
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-12-2004, 07:02 AM | #33 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Yeah.
Sauron: Come on Aragorn. Come give uncle Sauron a hug!
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 07:18 AM | #34 |
Elven Warrior
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Think about the family reunion!? Like most familys, they all got to pretend they actually like eachother! Gandalf drinking a glass of ale with Sauron. Aragorn gettin the birds and bees chat with elrond.... haha
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-12-2004, 07:25 AM | #35 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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The Gandalf goes and asks cousin Saruman wheher he'd like another beer or perhaps some pipe weed.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 07:32 AM | #36 |
Elven Warrior
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Also as was pointed out in the "Mathamtical" post wasn't Beren and Luthiens son the true half elven!? Why was half elven waited to be given to elrond and elros when they are 13/somethingeth elvish!?
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen |
09-12-2004, 11:01 AM | #37 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
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09-12-2004, 11:04 AM | #38 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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What would happen if it were a dwarf or a hobbit that married an elf. If they choose to be elven would they suddenly grow.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 11:53 AM | #39 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
I can tell you, that if a dwarf married an elf, (and they would never marry, but anyway..), then he'd stay a dwarf, and the elf will still be an elf. |
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09-13-2004, 08:21 PM | #40 | |||||||
Enting
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Arwen was not an elf to begin with. She aged as one until her choice (which was required of her around the time her father left Middle-earth). The same was required of her brothers, though they put it off a little longer.
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Additionally, Tuor is the only man to be made immortal, but likewise, this was not because he wed or had a son by Idril - it was a privelege granted later when Gondolin was abandoned, a gift for his deeds and obedience to Ulmo. Quote:
Also, here's the quote someone asked about earlier (that notes the biological similarities between elves and humans). It's in Letter No. 153 (a popular one for it addresses many issues throroughly, including Earendil's family's situation). Quote:
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'Legolas' on The Barrow-Downs ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. Last edited by Ulmo : 09-13-2004 at 08:27 PM. |
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