Historical Trivia

[Draken]

Originally posted by sun-star
Never, never speak of "The Patriot" in my hearing :shudder: The British always come out badly in American movies, but that was just - I hear "U571" (is that the title?) was historically bad too, but I haven't seen it. I did, however, watch Pearl Harbor - and promptly wished I hadn't

I've don't bother with any Mel Gibson film after Mad Max 2, as they (and he) are pants.

Yeah just a slight historical inaccuracy in U571...the fact that in real life the Royal Navy pulled the heist and not the US Navy. I'm sure it won't be the last, I can just imagine "Spitfire!", the story of how a batch of Lockheed Spitfires are flown direct from the factory (ignoring orders from some angry fat bloke in an office) to save Maine from a Nazi invasion (small print in the credits saying it's based on something that happened over Kent)

Forget a Historical Trivia thread, we could do with one for Trivialising History - I'm sure we'll end up talking about film-makers who decide to cram the complexities of a real life event into a 2 hour visual treat with clear-cut goodies and baddies - with one nation NEVER supplying any of the baddies, it goes without saying!

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Draken
Yeah just a slight historical inaccuracy in U571...the fact that in real life the Royal Navy pulled the heist and not the US Navy. I'm sure it won't be the last, I can just imagine "Spitfire!", the story of how a batch of Lockheed Spitfires are flown direct from the factory (ignoring orders from some angry fat bloke in an office) to save Maine from a Nazi invasion (small print in the credits saying it's based on something that happened over Kent)

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest

[Radagast]

It is amazing what a strategically brilliant stroke Pearl Harbour was by the Japanese. Tactically superb.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Radagast
It is amazing what a strategically brilliant stroke Pearl Harbour was by the Japanese. Tactically superb.
_________________________________

Yes, but in Pearl Harbor Betrayed, by Michael Gannon, a study which also shows the silliness of conspiracy theories of letting the Japanese attack Pearl harbor:

"On assuming command at Pearl, and expecting a second air strike, Admiral Nimitz observed, 'There remain untouched the very important and tempting objectives of fuel supply, navy yard industrial establishment and drydocks, commercial docks and the city of Honolulu.' But by the date of those remarks, 7 January 1942, Nagumo's carriers were moored back in home waters, having shot their bolts in the wrong direction. Though they may not have realized it yet, their great tactical victory had become a
strategic defeat. Attacking Pearl Harbor, as shown earlier [in the book], was not even necessary to protect their warlords' seizure of rubber, tin, tungsten, and oil. And for their pains they had riled up an American public as no other act in our history had. Said historian Morison in an oft-quoted judgment, 'One can search military history in vain for an operation more fatal to the aggressor.' "
_________________________________
Trivia: Hannah Penn was Pennsylvania's first woman governor.
"Although she did not hold the formal title of governor, Hannah Penn served as Pennsylvania's acting proprietor and head of government from October 1712 until her death in December 1726. Residing in England throughout that period, her only visual knowledge of Pennsylvania came from her stay there with William Penn from December 1699 to September 1701."
Fall 2003, Pennsylvania Heritage Magazine

[Janny]

Originally posted by Radagast
It is amazing what a strategically brilliant stroke Pearl Harbour was by the Japanese. Tactically superb.

Is that sarcasm? Um... Pearl Habour delighted Churchill because I forced, you know, the world largest economy and most power nation into the war on the Allies' side.
I don't know if it is true that it was 'delusions of pathetic Republican right wingers' or if it really was a plan by the US for a reason for war, but the Japanese really made a mistake (so far as I can see). Let's face, the wrong side of America is the wrong place to be... (not a criticism of the US!)

[Nurvingiel]

We might have even lost WWII without reinforcements from the Americans. It could even be argued that if the Japanese hadn't bombed Pearl Harbour, the Allies would have lost the war! (Except if the USA saw that Europe was nearly overrun, maybe they would have stepped in anyway. Except... wasn't it already?)

[Count Comfect]

The attack on Pearl Harbor was both strategically and tactically brilliant: Japan knew it would be in conflict with the US at some point over US denial of rubber, oil and scrap iron (embargoed at the time). So they needed to attack, and do it in as overwhelming a means as possible. And the tactical excecution was perfect, except that the carriers weren't in the harbor.
The big strategic mistake was Germany, three days later, declaring war on the United States. The US had not declared war on Germany (and might not have), but once they had had war declared on them, they went at it fully.

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Janny
I forced, you know, the world largest economy and most power nation into the war on the Allies' side.

You did? Wow, thanks

Let's face, the wrong side of America is the wrong place to be... (not a criticism of the US!)

Sounds like a compliment if you ask me...

[sun-star]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
We might have even lost WWII without reinforcements from the Americans. It could even be argued that if the Japanese hadn't bombed Pearl Harbour, the Allies would have lost the war! (Except if the USA saw that Europe was nearly overrun, maybe they would have stepped in anyway. Except... wasn't it already?)

Yes on both counts. American support was crucial, but at what point they would have stepped in is debatable. Europe was pretty much overrun from the Dunkirk evacuations in June 1940, and the US didn't enter the war until December 1941 (after Pearl Harbor, obviously). So whether a threat from Germany alone would have cause America to declare war is very uncertain.


It's more serious than trivia, but since I mentioned Dunkirk, here's a fascinating story about one man's experience of it:

Albert Barnes, then aged just 14, is thought to have been the youngest civilian caught up in the rescue. In 1939, he left school to work as a galley boy on the docking tugboat Sun XII, and as he turned up for work on the morning of 2 June, the first mate told him they were off to France. Sun XII set off for Dunkirk with two sailing barges in tow, one laden with ammunition, the other with fresh drinking-water.

When he reached Dunkirk, the evacuation was already well underway. "There were sunken vessels everywhere", he says.
"Bodies floating, bombs and shells going off. And the noise - it was absolutely horrific. Till then the loudest bangs I'd heard had been on Bonfire Night."

Mr Barnes recalls the thousands of soldiers trapped on the beach. "And I remember the dead ones too because they were floating everywhere. Being rescue tugs we saw some pretty bad sights, especially seeing tankers go up. That's something I'll never forget - watching a tanker go from a ship to a mass of flames," he says. "I was very frightened, terrified in fact, because there were German dive-bombers all around us. But we just got on with the job."

Back in England, his parents had no idea where he was for 14 days. "I didn't even have time to tell my mum and dad I was going," he says. When Albert's parents telephoned his employers, they were told only that he was off "on government business". A fortnight later, Albert knocked on the door of the family home. "'Where the hell have you been?' my mother asked. I said 'I've been to France' because Dunkirk wasn't well known in those days. She looked amazed and said 'You've never been to Dunkirk?' and I said, 'Oh that's it, that's the place.' 'Oh my God' she said. "They must have been worried sick and they made a bit of a fuss of me, I suppose. Me, I think I was too young to take it all in. I was all flaked out. I had a bath and went to bed and slept for 24 hours. Then it was back to work as usual, scrubbing and cleaning and brewing up tea," he says.

[Nariel]

Tuor, I thought it was stipulated that this should not go into persecution, and I think that comment on the Republican right-wingers was uncalled for. To be honest, most, if not all, of the political parties have made up conspiracy theories at one time or another.

Also, The Yorktown was fired upon and severely damaged in the battle of Midway, but it did manage to make it back to port.

Another one of my favorites is a Napoleon Story (it's quite famous actually):

Napoleon's favorite horse ran away one day and he had practically the entire army out looking for it. Finally an upstart young private found the horse and returned it to Napoleon. Napoleon asked the young man's rank.

"Private, sir," said the boy.

"Thank you, Captain," said Napoleon.

[Nurvingiel]

I'd never heard that story - very cool Nar!

About my earlier posts, though we have dark moments in our history, not all Canadian history is negative.

For example, Trudeau created the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 198(3)?, which I feel has been extremely good for this country. Especially in terms of Native land rights and gay rights.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

And wasn't about half of the Northern Territories returned to Inuits? How's that working out? Much more enlightened then American policy towards Indians. As sem-trivia, one American president I think should have been impeached and removed from office was Andrew Jackson, who nor only forced Indians who were making enormous efforts to "civilize" in the South (including holding slaves!, to remove West, but ignored the Supreme Court when they delared his actions unconstitutional.

http://statelibrary.dcr.state.nc.us/...ic/jackson.htm
"Two years later Jackson did nothing to make Georgia abide by the Supreme Court's ruling in Worcester vs. Georgia in which the Court found that the State of Georgia did not have any jurisdiction over the Cherokees. Georgia ignored the Court's decision and so did Andrew Jackson. In 1838-1839 Georgia evicted the Cherokees and forced them to march west. About twenty-five percent of the Indians were dead before they reached their new lands in Oklahoma. The Indians refer to this march as the "Trail of Tears" and even though it took place after Jackson's presidency, the roots of the march can be found in Jackson's failure to uphold the legal rights of Native Americans during his administration."

[GrayMouser]

During the War of the Spanish Succession, at the Battle of Almanza in 1707, the commander of the French army was an Englishman, while the British commander was French (Catholic and Protestant respectively)

The French won.

[Janny]

Korean leader Kim Yong Il was once introduced on a forgein visit:
'Ladies and gentlemen, Kim Yong the Second'

[sun-star]

Income tax in the UK is still a temporary law. It has to be renewed every year by act of Parliament.

[Janny]

Under British Law 200 years ago there was a distinction made between 'insanity' and 'lunacy', insanity caused by the effect of the moon, with lunatics receiving more lenient punishments.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The existing painting "Washington Crossing the Delaware" in the Metropolitan Museum in New York is actually the second one done by Emanuel Lentze. The original one (finished in 1850) was partially damaged in a fire but still won a gold medal in Berlin and was a part of the permanent collection of the Bremen Art Museum.

In Washington's Crossing, by David Haskett Fischer:
"There it stayed until September 5, 1942 when it was destroyed in a bombing raid by the British Royal Air Force in what some have seen as a final act of retribution for the American Revolution."

[Nariel]

Janny, are you sure about that? It would seem to me to be the other way around, since "lunatic" comes from the Latin root for "moon"

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Nariel
Janny, are you sure about that? It would seem to me to be the other way around, since "lunatic" comes from the Latin root for "moon"

I think he's saying that 'lunacy' is described as "insanity caused by the effect of the moon..." though I had to read it twice myself to catch that at first (watch that 'punc-chiation' Janny! ).

[Janny]

Will do [exclaimation mark] Thanx Valandil [comma] Nariel had me think I was going senile [hyphon] at 16 [comma] too [exclaimation mark] Truns out I'm just careless [stop] sorry!

In 1948 a Washington radio station asked various ambassadors what they would like most for Christmas.
The French ambassador said 'Peace throughout the world'.
The Soviet said 'Freedom for all people enslaved by imperialism'.
The British Ambassador, Sir Oliver Franks sadly misunderstood the question and replied: 'Well, it's very kind of you to ask. I'd quite like a box of crystalised fruits'.