10-05-2004, 04:28 PM | #21 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Gaffer....I do believe in truth, but I'm also fairly sure there are some smaller grey areas, where interpretation and circumstance can come into play. My mind is too crowded with "to do" lists right now to think of any good, clean examples. I'll go with 70% truth, and 30% relative circumstance. I see small grey shawdows around lots of the black and white in the world. I remember tripping on acid as a teen, and my perceptions WERE totally altered for about half a day...but that did not change the truth that was the same as ever, after the drugs wore off. I'm with BJ...I DO NOT have a "worldview"! TD, the reason I feel this way is because of reality. Todays religions seem no different than the Greek or Roman myths. Those *stories* were pretty important stuff in their day...and now, just a bunch of stories. Last edited by Lizra : 10-05-2004 at 04:32 PM. |
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10-05-2004, 04:31 PM | #22 |
The Blobbit
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But to what extent do you exist then, if you merely live and die? How can we enjoy music if we have no soul (I mean soul in a pretty mainstream definition)? It just seems, I don't know, something wrong with being able to tag 'desires and abilities' and stick them down to genes alone.
I don't know if that was a question. If it was I don't if it was rhetorical.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
10-05-2004, 04:39 PM | #23 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Last edited by Lizra : 10-05-2004 at 04:40 PM. |
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10-05-2004, 04:45 PM | #24 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I think what Shelob's Hubby means (correct me if I'm wrong) is that some people paint/draw/sing etc from their soul. That's where they get their inspiration and ideas from.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 Last edited by Telcontar_Dunedain : 10-05-2004 at 04:49 PM. |
10-05-2004, 04:50 PM | #25 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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There is no such thing as a "soul".
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10-05-2004, 04:51 PM | #26 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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What makes you think that?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-05-2004, 04:51 PM | #27 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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What an interesting thread! I'd love to join in.
Lizra, you explained your point of view very well. I feel like I understand an atheist point of view better now, so thanks! (I personally believe in God.) This reminds me of a joke: I grew up in a mixed religion household. My mom was an atheist and my dad was an agnostic. I remember the arguments: "There is no God." "There might be." Anyway Janny, I think that when we ask Lizra about her views, we shouldn't assume that the mainstream/Christian view is correct. It's really easy to do this thing, so no worries. I just think it will make a better discussion.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-05-2004, 04:59 PM | #28 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Boy...I hope INKED shows up! Totally opposite point of veiw from mine, but he has a "way with words"! Last edited by Lizra : 10-05-2004 at 05:06 PM. |
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10-05-2004, 05:03 PM | #29 |
Elf Lord
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We must exist because we think we exist. If nothing existed to ask "Do I exist" the question wouldn't be askable. We also exist because we perceive. Now, whether or not what we perceive is truly how things are is where things get tricky.
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
10-05-2004, 05:17 PM | #30 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Lizra has the floor ... or the seat ... or whatever she wants ...
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(I was hoping you'd show up, Millane - I enjoyed a similar talk we had awhile back - you brought up some very intriguing points) I've just had time for a quick glance at some of these questions and responses, and it looks like such fun! I really like this format of one person at a time, and all of us asking questions from our different perspectives But I can't ask one yet - I'm off to my son's football game ... Go Lancers!! (I'll think of some good ones while I"m there)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-05-2004 at 05:20 PM. |
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10-05-2004, 05:21 PM | #31 | |
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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10-05-2004, 07:14 PM | #32 |
the Shrike
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I have to admit, I have difficulty with trying to understand our complexity sometimes, especially when you throw music and art into the equation. I don't think we have a "soul", it all boils down to genetics and chemistry. Music is more easily explained - we are vocal creatures. Sound is, and has been very important to us as both baser animals, and as sentient beings. I think that music has an effect upon humans in much the same way as making love. It appeals to our more primal beings. Something about music works upon the more 'primitive' aspect of humanity. Art is different. Art can appeal to us in an analytical sense, as well as an emotional one, but art is is HARDER to understand than music. You don't get that baser-level response without working at it. I have to say, I have difficulty explaining why art has the affect it does.
Sorry Rian, I know you only want it to be one person at a time, but perhaps it would be easier to have maybe a couple going, so the discussion doesn't dry up too much?
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
10-05-2004, 09:52 PM | #33 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I have no problem with moving out of the spotlight, but I guess Rian wants to ask me a question...? Last edited by Lizra : 10-05-2004 at 09:56 PM. |
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10-05-2004, 10:01 PM | #34 |
Enting
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Sorry about the confusion. Mercutio explained it pretty well. I meant to say: How can you explain art and music by organic chemistry and evolution alone? Where did our appreciation of aesthetic things come from? We are obviously different (at least IMO) from other intelligent creatures (i.e. dolphins, corvids, apes, etc.) in other ways then intelligence; why is that? Also, the age old question: why is there something instead of nothing?
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Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? I think so Brain, but without ears, we look like weasels. "The next time I lent an ax to a surgeon, I would pick my century." A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. The Last Alliance of Orcs and Spiders |
10-05-2004, 10:05 PM | #35 | |
Enting
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Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? I think so Brain, but without ears, we look like weasels. "The next time I lent an ax to a surgeon, I would pick my century." A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. The Last Alliance of Orcs and Spiders |
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10-05-2004, 10:32 PM | #36 | |
Elf Lord
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What about the randomness of quantum physics? Note: I know very little about this science, except that on the quantum level, structures of matter react in impossible to predict movements, ie: completely random. Thus "accidental."
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
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10-05-2004, 11:07 PM | #37 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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SH, people like what they like because of their genetic makeup, and life experience. People who don't create music like to listen to it because it pleases them. Ask them why they like it, and you will get different answers...all valid. There are millions of years of genetics and conditioning behind everything we do, and each person is also unique in their own ways. There is no "simple" answer as to why people do and like what they do, but I personally see no reason to make up an invisible, undetectible part of the human body and label it a soul. Sometimes I might use the word "soul" to talk about my individuality, but to me, this is just a figure of speech, not part of anatomy.
Star, I don't know anything about the randomness of quantum physics either. Perhaps there are accidents in this area. I was speaking about human beings, and the things they do and create. SH asked if music and art were accidents...which seems a kind of silly question. I put lots of thought and energy into my art. It is no accident, and comes from my years of painting, drawing, veiwing, and my personnal appreciation of all sorts of visual stimulus and other people's art. Because I am a different person than anyone else, what appeals to me might not be the same as what appeals to someone else, but hopefully I have learned my craft well enough by this time, to have honed it down to something that speaks to my fellow man. Oh yes...thank you Nurvingiel! Last edited by Lizra : 10-05-2004 at 11:11 PM. |
10-06-2004, 07:57 AM | #38 |
Fair Dinkum
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It was my belief that every person has a soul that kept me clinging to my Catholic beliefs for a long time, although I simultaneously did not believe in a God. I didn't understand how all the unique personalities of individuals, as well as all the products of human genious (e.g. art and music) could exist if souls didn't. I currently believe in no afterlife- that our energy is "recycled" as Liz put it, and I do think that isn't so bad.
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10-06-2004, 12:29 PM | #39 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-06-2004, 12:40 PM | #40 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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So IMO, Janny's question was a perfectly good one - it brought up a point that he considered valid and it was worded in a manner that showed consideration to the person in the "hot seat". That's the type of question I'm after, and I hope to get lots of those type questions from Lizra and others that think my worldview is wrong when it's my turn in the seat.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-06-2004 at 12:42 PM. |
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