Numenorean Population Sizes

Would it be safe to say Gondor always had a greater population density than Arnor, even when they were at their peak? A look at any geography book reveals that coastal areas tend to be more heavily populated than inland areas. There may have been a high pop density around Tharbad itself, however.

I wonder how many cities the Numenoreans founded and were later abandoned for various reasons? And were all cities founded before the Fall of Numenor, or were any established after Elendil, Isildur and Anarion came over?

Why was Annuminas abandoned for one thing. You don't abandon capitals without good reason (although the Cambodians abandoned an intact Angkor, after the Siamese ravaged the kingdom in the 15th Cent.). Osgiliath was ruined by the Kinstrife and the Plague, but the plague was much less in the North.

Would it be safe to say Gondor always had a greater population density than Arnor, even when they were at their peak? A look at any geography book reveals that coastal areas tend to be more heavily populated than inland areas. There may have been a high pop density around Tharbad itself, however.

River areas can also be population heavy, and Arnor had three major rivers along which to place its population centers: the Lhun, the Baranduin, and the Gwathlo. There is no text I know of which compares the populations of the two kingdoms, but I get the impression that in the beginning Arnor had the larger population.

I wonder how many cities the Numenoreans founded and were later abandoned for various reasons? And were all cities founded before the Fall of Numenor, or were any established after Elendil, Isildur and Anarion came over?

There were probably other cities which did not figure into history. For example, where did the kings of Rhudaur and Cardolan live? Cardolan may have made its capitol at Tharbad, but what about Rhudaur? Also, Elendil's people lived in the lands which later became the Shire. Did they have towns there or just farms? I think it's likely they had towns, especially at Sarn Ford, the Bridge of Stonebows (later called the Brandywine Bridge), and the White Downs (where Michel Delving was later settled by the Hobbits).

Why was Annuminas abandoned for one thing. You don't abandon capitals without good reason (although the Cambodians abandoned an intact Angkor, after the Siamese ravaged the kingdom in the 15th Cent.). Osgiliath was ruined by the Kinstrife and the Plague, but the plague was much less in the North.

Annuminas was abandoned because the city had become depopulated. I suspect that when the three sons of Earendur divided Arnor into lesser kingdoms many of the people of Annuminas left to live in either Rhudaur or Cardolan. Amlaith then took the remaining people to Fornost Erain.

Hmm..... so you say Arnor had a bigger pop? Guess that's why Earendur's sons thought they could afford to divide the country.

Were there other Numenorean settlements outside of Gondor and Arnor? Where were the lands of "Black Numenoreans" as some call them? (I think Umbar was one). I suppose perhaps not all Numenorean territories swore allegiance to Elendil after the fall of Numenor, despite his being of the royal line.

It's my feeling that Arnor started out with the larger population, but there's no real evidence either way.

Probably the majority of Numenoreans who survived the Downfall dwelt outside of Arnor and Gondor. Umbar was the farthest north named colony of Black Numenoreans, but there is reference in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" to two Kings Men lords, Fuinur and Herumor, who ruled domains close to Gondor and Mordor.

The Black Numenoreans dwindled or became mingled with other kinds of Men in the Third Age, but apparently some survived until the end of the Third Age, as the Mouth of Sauron was a Black Numenorean.

Arnor and Gondor gave allegiance to Elendil and his line. I wonder if they were havens of the Faithful from the beginning (from before Numenor's Fall), or it was just chance that Elendil and Sons landed where they landed and took over?

Were all Gondorians and Arnorians loyal, or did Elendil have to do a bit of consolidating? Did Isildur have to confront King's Men in and near Gondor? (Maybe there isn't material enough to say anything definite here, so I can speculate... oh joy!!).

Does anyone know when Mordor was founded? I'm thinking it's the wrecked remnant of Utumno that Sauron took over.

Mordor was founded by Sauron around Second Age 1000.

"Akallabeth" says that the Faithful began settling in the lands close to Lindon when they started leaving Numenor. Pelargir became their chief haven but they certainly also had access to Lond Daer Ened and Tharbad, too.

So when Elendil and his sons reached Middle-earth there were already many Numenoreans living in the lands which became Arnor and Gondor.

When Sauron made war on the Elves because they didn't fall for his Magic Ring gambit, were there Numenoreans in Arnor? I get the impression the Numnoreans didn't get involved until Ar-Pharazon. THere was no mention (in Silmarillion) of Sauron making war on the Dunedain either, before ar-Pharazon intervened. Maybe Sauron avoided the Numenoreans to concentrate on Gil-Galad.

Thing is, how to fight Gil-galad without violating Numenorean territory in Arnor? Unless Arnor was sparsely populated. This is really the reason (along with Arnor's limited access to the Sea) why I thought Arnor had low population.

I'm speculating of course. Silmarillion doesn't describe the account of the First War of the Ring (called the War of Elves and Sauron, but it sounds a bit lame).

The longest, most detailed account of what happened in the Second Age is provided in a rejected history of Galadriel and Celeborn which was published in Unfinished Tales. In that story the Numenoreans actually spent about 100 years building up stockpiles and defenses in Lindon and along the Gwathlo in preparation for the War of the Elves and Sauron. But Eriador was at that time either under Gil-galad's control or under the control of non-Numenorean Edainic peoples or other Elves (Nandor, Avari, Sindar, and some Noldor).

The war resulted in the destruction of many communities throughout Eriador. I don't know if we can say that any of these communities were "realms" or "kingdoms" like Lindon or Eregion. If they had names, those names were forgotten. They ceased to exist with the war.

Whatever peoples survived the war seem to have re-established themselves in Eriador, but I get the impression from the various histories that Gil-galad took informal if not formal control over Eriador after the war. He was essentially the only leader with enough military power to do that.

Appendix B in The Lord of the Rings, "The Tale of Years", says that the Numenoreans began establishing permanent havens in Middle-earth around the year 1200. But we don't know when they started establishing permanent havens in the north. Vinyalonde had been built by Aldarion but it was at most used as a seasonal port during his lifetime. His daughter seems to have ignored Middle-earth completely, so Vinyalonde was only turned into a permanent haven some centuries after Aldarion founded it. Ciryaher, the Numenorean admiral who brought the relief fleet to Gil-galad's aid, used the port, so it may have been a permanent haven at that time. Perhaps the preparations for the war were responsible for the decision to inhabit the city continuously.

Arnor didn't exist until near the end of the Second Age. Gil-galad helped Elendil establish his realm in the year 3320. Elendil appears to have spent several months with Gil-galad from his arrival in Lindon in 3319 until Arnor was established.

My guess is that Gil-galad proposed that Elendil establish a new kingdom. Elendil then probably asked the Numenoreans and Edain then living in Eriador if they would accept him as their king. Gil-galad at the same time may have summoned all the Elves to leave those portions of Eriador which were being ceded to Elendil.

So, there is no need to suggest that Arnor had a low population. The peoples of Eriador had 1600 years to recover their populations after the War of the Elves and Sauron (1695-1701). That's plenty of time for recovery. And Gil-galad's own Elven population seems to have grown considerably during the years of Sauron's exile in Numenor and the first 100 years of the existence of Arnor and Gondor.

I accept that Eriador was populated by the non-Numenoreans during the War of Elves and Sauron. THe War depopulated Eriador, then the population recovered somewhat.... but it wasn't Numenorean territory, and the population weren't Numenoreans or Dunedain. (When did they start being called Dunedain? After the Fall of Numenor?)

"But Eriador was at that time either under Gil-galad's control or under the control of non-Numenorean Edainic peoples or other Elves (Nandor, Avari, Sindar, and some Noldor)."


THe Numenoreans were mostly at the coastal havens, and moved in near the end of the 2nd Age:

"Arnor didn't exist until near the end of the Second Age. Gil-galad helped Elendil establish his realm in the year 3320. Elendil appears to have spent several months with Gil-galad from his arrival in Lindon in 3319 until Arnor was established.

My guess is that Gil-galad proposed that Elendil establish a new kingdom. Elendil then probably asked the Numenoreans and Edain then living in Eriador if they would accept him as their king. Gil-galad at the same time may have summoned all the Elves to leave those portions of Eriador which were being ceded to Elendil."

Maybe there was a lot of other people, but not that many Dunedain, who were just beginnnig to establish Arnor under Elendil.

As for Gil-Galad's folk recovering, well, the impression I have from LOTR and Silmarillion, is that Elvish civilizations have poor powers of recovery. Eregion was left empty, Lorien was later abandoned, Rivendell was just hanging on in the 3rd age, Lune was where the Elves fled when they couldn't take it anymore and wanted to sail away...

Something to do with their reluctance to reproduce. Elrond had 3 kids (in all of 6-7000 years?!!), Cirdan none, Gil-Galad none (despite staying 2 Ages), Galadriel and Celeborn none (with a name like "Teleporno", I thought he would be more uh, "fruitful"), Thranduil just one (and even Legolas sailed away).... Can't rebuild anything without people!!

I think the best Gil-galad could manage was to gather remnants of other realms and glob them together.

THe Dunedain almost went the same way, with Gondorians reluctant to have children (as Faramir said to Frodo in Henneth Annun). I also noted that Arnor was still depopulated many centuries after the Fall of Fornost.

Tolkien wrote that there were many people of mixed blood in both Arnor and Gondor. And Tharbad was a Numenorean haven, too. It was far from the coast.

"Akallabeth" shows us that most of the Faithful Dunedain left Numenor before the Downfall. By the time Elendil arrived in Middle-earth there were a lot of people who had settled there before him.

As for Gil-Galad's folk recovering, well, the impression I have from LOTR and Silmarillion, is that Elvish civilizations have poor powers of recovery. Eregion was left empty, Lorien was later abandoned, Rivendell was just hanging on in the 3rd age, Lune was where the Elves fled when they couldn't take it anymore and wanted to sail away...

The Silmarillion states in several places that the Elven populations were quick to grow whenever they had a respite. The Noldor increased in Beleriand after they returned to Middle-earth and began the Siege of Angband, the survivors of Gondolin and Doriath increased their population after settling in Arvernien, etc.

"Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" says that Gil-galad's power grew great during Sauron's absence. That power could only increase through the growth of populations.

And The Lord of the Rings says that the army of the Last Alliance (in Elrond's estimation) was the largest ever assembled in Middle-earth, except for the Host of Valinor. Lorien, too, was nearly deserted after the Third Age only because its people mostly moved across the Anduin.

And Elves were hardly reluctant to reproduce. Furthermore, you have no way of knowing whether Cirdan had children. And Galadriel and Celeborn had at least one daughter, Celebrian, who was Elrond's wife. Nor do we know whether Legolas was Thranduil's only child.

Nor did Faramir tell Frodo that his people were reluctant to have children. What Faramir said to Frodo in "The Window on the West" was:

'Death was ever present, because the Numenoreans still, as they had in their old kingdom, and so lost it, hungered after endless life unchanging. Kings made tombs more splendid than houses of the living, and counted old names in the rolls of their descent dearer than the names of sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; and in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars. And the last king of the line of Anarion had no heir.'

He was speaking of the Kings of Gondor in referring to childlessness, not of the Dunedain in general.

Ai, but the Fourth Age was for the Dominion of Men, and the decline of the Elves. Why would the Elves decline? Sauron was defeated; Gandalf said that if the Ring was destroyed, Sauron's fall would be so complete no one can foresee his return.

If what thou sayest of the *ahem* fecundity of the Elves be true, the Fourth Age should bring a resurgence and a pop explosion of Elves. And strange sounds coming from the treetops.

Why the decline eh? Martinez must tells us, my Precious...gollum gollum...

I was wondering how King Elessar plans to restore Arnor. Out of practicality he'll start with restoring Tharbad. A working port will make rebuilding the north-kingdom easier.

Most of the Eldar left Middle-earth by the end of the Third Age. Many of the Silvan Elves had already left, too. In the Fourth Age there would have been a resurgence of Silvan Elves for a time, until they began to fade, but there would be no more Eldarin civilizations.

Fading, deaths in war, and departures over Sea were pretty much the reasons for the depletions of Elven populations. And though they averaged about four children per couple in the early ages, Tolkien says they eventually had fewer children (on average).

Goodness that was quick!!! You must be online at this time.

So in other words the Elves became reluctant to reproduce in later ages. Why the change?

Demoralization I suppose. When you have no stable culture, you're reluctant to breed, and bring more kids into misery. The attitude among the later Elves seem to be "Lets enjoy life while we can, nothing we build lasts anyway..."

So in other words the Elves became reluctant to reproduce in later ages. Why the change?

I have no idea. Sorry.

I've been re-reading LOTR, and looking at the map. Gosh, I never realised how big Arnor is!! Why, even when you put Calenardhon with Gondor, Arnor would still be 3 times bigger!! I think you're right about Arnor having larger population, once Elendil got the kingdom running properly!!

Tharbad seems a bit far inland, so I never figured it for a port city. But why did Boromir lose his horse there?

If what thou sayest of the *ahem* fecundity of the Elves be true, the Fourth Age should bring a resurgence and a pop explosion of Elves. And strange sounds coming from the treetops.

They did manage to recover their numbers despite many setbacks. But the Fourth Age also brought more departures over Sea. And eventually the Elves faded.

Don't know about Tharbad, but Annuminas was restored.

There seems to have been a decline in the military might of the Noldor after rthe Second Age and the Last Alliance. Indeed Elrond seemed a bit wistful when he said that "a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days" couldn't help Frodo to Mordor, even if he could find or spare any.

The 3rd Age was pretty bad for the Dunedain, but the Noldor, what was left of them, seemed to have been left alone. The Grey Havens were not assailed. Yet the Noldor did not seem to increase in numbers significantly, and when Fornost was about to fall, they waited until Earnur sailed up the Lune with his Gondorians.

Now, Earnur's army was probably nowhere near as big as Elendil's, but the Havens Elves were astonished at the numbers that Earnur brought. Seems the Noldor were bleeding away.

The Eldar of Eriador were able to field armies on more than one occasion in the Third Age. Elrond's comment at the Council was with respect to the current time frame. The last great, mass exodus of Elves had already occurred (see "The Shadow of the Past"). He no longer had the means to field an army.

But he was saying that Sauron had by this point become so powerful that even one of the legendary Elven armies of the First Age wouldn't be able to get all the way to Orodruin.

"But he was saying that Sauron had by this point become so powerful that even one of the legendary Elven armies of the First Age wouldn't be able to get all the way to Orodreth. "

You meant "Orodruin" didn't you? Orodreth was Finrod's brother I think.

I'm curious that both names contain "Orod". Orodruin was a horrible place, while Orodreth was Finrod's well-meaning but somewhat less competent kid brother. What do the names mean?

Had Sauron become really that powerful in military terms? I mean I always thought Mordor was but a pale shadow of Angband's war machine. Morgoth mainly fielded Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, Werewolves, Vampires, a few Balrogs (Seven only? Really?), and probably an assortment of other monsters like that Thing in the Lake at Moria. Plus some Men, and the odd Elf like Maeglin.

Sauron seems to field mostly Easterlings and Sothrons supplemented by Orcs and Trolls. Granted though, there were probably a LOT of Men on his side.

"But he was saying that Sauron had by this point become so powerful that even one of the legendary Elven armies of the First Age wouldn't be able to get all the way to Orodreth. "

You meant "Orodruin" didn't you? Orodreth was Finrod's brother I think.

Yes. I've now corrected my message. Thanks for pointing out the gaffe to me. I guess I had Elven kings on the mind last night.

I'm curious that both names contain "Orod". Orodruin was a horrible place, while Orodreth was Finrod's well-meaning but somewhat less competent kid brother. What do the names mean?

"Orod" is a word for "mountain". "ruin" is translated as "blazing fire" by Christopher Tolkien in The Silmarillion although it seems to be related to a stem, roy, which means "ruddy, red". Robert Foster translates "Orodruin" as "mountain of red flame". The Silmarillion gives the meaning of "red flame" for "ruin", so I'm not sure of where Christopher was coming from with his "blazing fire".

I am not enough of a linguist to figure out what "reth" means. It may be related to Elvish words for "seed" and "sow", but that's just an untutored guess.

Had Sauron become really that powerful in military terms? I mean I always thought Mordor was but a pale shadow of Angband's war machine. Morgoth mainly fielded Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, Werewolves, Vampires, a few Balrogs (Seven only? Really?), and probably an assortment of other monsters like that Thing in the Lake at Moria. Plus some Men, and the odd Elf like Maeglin.

Sauron didn't command the variety of servants Morgoth had, but Tolkien wrote somewhere (the reference escapes me) that Sauron was, at the end of the Second Age, more personally powerful than Melkor had been at the end of the First Age, but that Sauron had become more militarily powerful at the end of the Third Age than he had been at the end of the Second Age.

Sauron seems to field mostly Easterlings and Sothrons supplemented by Orcs and Trolls. Granted though, there were probably a LOT of Men on his side.

There were indeed a lot of men on his side, and a lot of Orcs and Trolls.