Does Gandalf eventually die?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Around 1000 TA, I believe.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I think to figure out when Saruman became corrupted, you would have to figure out when he began gazing into the Palantir. Isn't that when Sauron saw into his mind?

[azalea]

Your right, it says they arrived around 1000TA, then in 2850 is when Gandalf finds out Sauron is "Dol Gulduring" it. That is our first milestone indicating that Saruman was turning, when he overrules Gandalf in deciding whether or not to attack. 3019 is when Saruman "leaves." So if we use those indicators, Saruman was in ME about 1,800 years at least before he starts to turn, versus only a couple of hundred give or take of being corrupt. AND I don't think he was completely corrupt immediately -- it would have taken many years of rationalizing it to himself before he finally "convinced" himself to try to get the Ring. So my conclusion is that he was only corrupt toward the end of his time in ME, whereas he had so many years in ME of being on the good side PLUS however long he was in Aman with the Valar and the rest of the Maiar on the side of good. Conversely, Sauron had been a baddie from the get-go in Arda, right? Anyway, that's the way I see it in my head.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

In 2730-something, he was given the Keys to Orthanc. I'm not sure, but I think I read somewhere that he already, shall we say, had ill intentions when he moved into Isengard.

[azalea]

Hmm, very sneaky of him!
Well, I guess my view of it stems from the fact that he came from Aman, and I see those that dwelt there as being very good, so he must have been good until the later days when he became corrupt. If that is the case, then maybe I should say toward the end of his time in Ea ("Ea" still included Aman, right? I get the terminology confused).

[Findegil]

Posted by Artanis:

I'm not sure what happened to Gandalf when he returned to the West. I'd like to think that he was allowed to 'die', and leave the world, as a reward for his great accomplishments in the War of the Ring. I had a little discussion with Findegil a while ago, about where Saruman went when he 'died'. Then Findegil argued that the Istari did not only wear the physical forms of (old) Men, but by Eru's direct intervention they also got to share the fate of Men. I was sceptical then, but his opinion has been growing in my mind. (If you're reading this Findegil, you may cheer ) So, if this is true, then Gandalf's case was special among the Maiar, and he would 'die' after a short time in Valinor.

I did read and I cheered. But now you make me think, I have oferdone it! I still hold to all I said in that discussion, but I am not sure if Gandalf would die in Valinor at all. I didn't meant that the Istari would die of old age. That they didn't is obvious. So this special part of man like fate was not laid on them.
So in Valinor the chance for the severance of fea and hora is very small. Why should he die then at all? It is possible that the Istari had the doom of the unfallen menkind, which fore me looks like they could live as long as they wanted, but when they were tiered of the world they could die and go beyond it, to Eru himself. That would be a very nice fate for a successfull Istari.
But on the other hand: Gandalf had once died. But he was sent back by Eru. We do not know what fate was laid on that second mission. Eru is for ever free to do as he will, so we don't know.

Redamption for Saruman, Sauron and Melkor? Yes, ofcourse! From The Silmarillion [HarperCollins Paperback edition 1999]; chapter Ainulindalë:

... Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a graeter still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days, Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

Isn't that redamption for all?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Findegil
I did read and I cheered.

It is possible that the Istari had the doom of the unfallen menkind, which fore me looks like they could live as long as they wanted, but when they were tiered of the world they could die and go beyond it, to Eru himself. That would be a very nice fate for a successfull Istari.

Yes. That's what I meant. I assumed Olorin would want to 'retire' after his mission in Middle-Earth was over, and I mean retire from the world, as you said. Reward and release.

But on the other hand: Gandalf had once died. But he was sent back by Eru. We do not know what fate was laid on that second mission. Eru is for ever free to do as he will, so we don't know.

Wasn't Gandalf sent back on the same mission, because it was not over yet? But when Sauron was overthrown, his task was ended. It would not be logical to let him die once, and then deny him this freedom after his success and the fulfilment of his task?

[Anglorfin]

I wouldn't know the circumstances of Gandalf's "second chance" and what Eru had to do with it but I would think that Gandalf's sailing into the West at the end of LotR is a good enough reward for him. Of the 5 Istari he is the only one to complete the mission, all of the others save Radagast being killed. Somewhere in UT I believe I read that after completing their tasks, the Istari would do nothing more than return to the West, thus being able to resume their lives as regular Maiar.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by azalea
Well, I guess my view of it stems from the fact that he came from Aman, and I see those that dwelt there as being very good, so he must have been good until the later days when he became corrupt.

But Melkor was also from Aman. And he was a bad seed from the get go. You can't just assume that any Maia or Valar from Aman is good.

Gandalf had just returned from a mission for the Valar when he was sent back to ME with Saruman, Radagast and the 2 Blue Istari. When it was all over, Gandalf waited with the last ship, and for Frodo, to go over the sea and leave ME. His duty and mission was complete. He could return to his home and rest.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Ruinel
But Melkor was also from Aman. And he was a bad seed from the get go.

I don't think he originally was. I believe Tolkien said in one of his Letters that he didn't deal in Ultimate or Pure Evil, and that Melkor had been good originally.

Isn't that redamption for all?

I don't think so. Understanding his intent is by no means the same as accepting it.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I don't think he originally was. I believe Tolkien said in one of his Letters that he didn't deal in Ultimate or Pure Evil, and that Melkor had been good originally.

This is where I got my impression of Melkor:
during the music of Iluvatar...

But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.

He was anxious to make things of his own. He was disatisfied with Iluvatar's timing and wanted to speed things up. He was anxious.
The music of Melkor was woven with his thoughts, and discord grew around him. He also disrupted the music his brethren was making.
Iluvatar stops the music and says...

"Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Iluvatar shows the Ainur the vision that was in the music. All are amazed. Melkor is ashamed that Iluvatar is not angry with him. And in that shame, grows anger.

That is the point where he turns completely from Iluvatar, in his mind.

I did not say he was an Ultimate or Pure Evil. But he was evil. And he did come from Aman.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

You said "from the get-go", which means "from the beginning", does it not?

[Findegil]

Posted by Artanis:

Wasn't Gandalf sent back on the same mission, because it was not over yet?

Yes, thats right so I we can guess that with the same mission he got the same abilities.

Posted by Atranis:

Yes. That's what I meant. I assumed Olorin would want to 'retire' after his mission in Middle-Earth was over, and I mean retire from the world, as you said. Reward and release.

I think my first post was not perfectly clear in this passage. To retire from the world was a gift for the unfallen man. But I dont think it was so for the Istari. They were Ainur and when they left Eru they devoted thier life to Ea. It is told that in the end when Arda growth old even the Valar would envy that gift of man, but I don't think that these times had come jet for any of the Maiar or Valar.
For the Istari this doom to be able to die really was not meant as reward, at least not before they returned. During thier mission it was a great risc but the Valar thought it to be a necissety for thier dealing with the people of Middle-Earth (with man in particular).

In short, Artanis: We agree in the possibilitys of Gandalf. But I don't think he would have taken that freedom very soon if ever he did at all.


Posted by Gwaimir Windgem in answer to my remark about redemption for all:

I don't think so. Understanding his intent is by no means the same as accepting it.

Understanding is not accepting that's true. But "the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright" suggest acceptance.

Posted by Ruinel:

And he [Melkor] did come from Aman.

He didn't. His brethern founded Aman long after Melkor had become evil. They did so to have a place of to defened against him. And only after they captured him, they brought him to Aman as prisoner. Eventually he was allowed to move there freely because they sought he searched redamption. But that was a lie of Melkor. So Melkor was never a good guy when he was in Aman.
Sauron for example was said to be a Maia of Aule in his beginning. So he was a good guy. But even he had already turned ofer when the Valar moved to Aman. And he never was in Aman.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Findegil
I think my first post was not perfectly clear in this passage.

You're very polite. Your post was clear enough, I'm the one who's messing things up.

In short, Artanis: We agree in the possibilitys of Gandalf. But I don't think he would have taken that freedom very soon if ever he did at all.

Perhaps not. The important thing is that he had the possibility to choose.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
You said "from the get-go", which means "from the beginning", does it not?

ME and all that is in it was not yet created. and there was nothingness. I would say that was the beginning. The music was the beginning of Arda.

Which makes Findegil correct. Melkor was never a good guy in Aman.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Findegil
Understanding is not accepting that's true. But "the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright" suggest acceptance.

Not neccesarily willful.

Originally posted by Ruinel
ME and all that is in it was not yet created. and there was nothingness. I would say that was the beginning. The music was the beginning of Arda.

The beginning of Arda? Perhaps. The Beginning? No. I can't verify this (Silmarillion is temporarily misplaced what with the moving preparation ), but I'm pretty sure that it is stated that the Ainur dwelt long with Eru before the World was made.

[Ruinel]

yes. they did dwell with Ilúvatar before the world was made. The music was made, then Ilúvatar showed the Valar a vision of what they had created with their music. Then the world begins to unfold.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Findegil
Understanding is not accepting that's true. But "the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright" suggest acceptance.

I agree, but the music doesn't have to be accepted and played by all of the Ainur, does it? If there are dissidents, they won't take part in the music. The big question is then, what would happen to them?

If Melkor, Saruman and Sauron should be redeemed, they would need to repent their deeds. I think that it is possible. None of them were wholly evil from the beginning, not even Melkor.

[Findegil]

Posted by Artanis:

I agree, but the music doesn't have to be accepted and played by all of the Ainur, does it? If there are dissidents, they won't take part in the music. The big question is then, what would happen to them?

Can we really think that Eru would be well pleased when a theme that was intended for all the Ainur would be played only by a part of them and the mighiest of them all not taking part? I don't think so! And in edition the state in which the Ainur would be during that music was what Melkor search from the beginning of his days: All his thoughts would get reality at once - like as he had found the imperishable flame in his explorations of the void.

The thought of Eru out of which Melkor was born, was to begin, to start with some thing new. It was natural (and I think it was also in the secret plan of Eru) that Melkor would bring his own new thoughts into the first music. His thoughts were not evil in intention, only that he did not harmonise them with Eru's theme or the music of his brethern created evil. And that he failed to do so, was in my view, the case because he had been away from the timeles halls for so long and hadn't take head of the music his brethern made there alone or in small groups.

Though again, we are on the point were we agree about the possibility but diagree in our oppinion about the actors taking them or not.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Findegil
Can we really think that Eru would be well pleased when a theme that was intended for all the Ainur would be played only by a part of them and the mighiest of them all not taking part? I don't think so!

No, you're right, I don't think so either. But do you agree that it would require repentance on Melkor's part, if he were to be redeemed and get to play in the second music? And if you do agree, how can we be sure that he is willing to repent?

Though again, we are on the point were we agree about the possibility but diagree in our oppinion about the actors taking them or not.

I'm not yet sure if I disagree or not. You see, sometimes I don't know what to think about an issue, so I'm exploring some possibilities. In that process other people's well-founded opinions, like yours, are highly appreciated.