Concerning Smeagol

[Lady of Darkness]

The change that took place on Gollum started to take place on Blilbo. Bilbo says that he feel old and stretched out, like butter spread out over too much bread. Perhaps in time, Bilbo wook be made to look somewhat like Gollum?

[barrelrider110]

True, Bilbo was effected by the ring, probably more than he realized. The ring's effect on Smeagol was diffferent.

The ring's effect on Bilbo was very nearly imperceptable and gradual. In Smeagol's case, it was immediate and profound.
He wanted it so badly that he killed for a friend for it.

I don't think Bilbo would have turned into anything like Gollum. However, over time, it would have made him wretched and miserable.

[Elf Girl]

Smeagol was just bad by nature, so the Ring played on that weakness. Bilbo didn't have that weakness, so the Ring couldn't play on it and had to break him down gradually.

[JenniferTook]

I'd have to agree that the immediate effect on Smeagol from the Ring had more to do with his personality more than the Ring itself. It did take him many years to completely transform into Gollum and since Deagol did not also immediately become violent to get the Ring, it must be assumed that Smeagol was just more susceptible to evil. I certainly agree that any person who comes in contact with the Ring would act differently towards it. When Frodo first knows what the Ring is, he wants to be rid of it while Boromir wants to use it right away against the Dark Lord. This implies that, to a certain extent, the Ring does not effect everyone the same way.


Jennifer

[rainbow]

smegal was weak and didnt have as stronger character wereas frodo sam had been warned bout the ring and hardened their characters against it bilbo was effected differently cos he had a different character

[Faramir]

Gollum was just evil. It wasn't the ring that caused him to kill Deagol, it was greed. He saw the little gold band, thought it was shiny, and wanted it. He was also so evil, he just turned into Gollum.

[Elf Girl]

But really, I still think killing your friend is a bit drastic for a natural emotion. And remember, he said, "precious" so the ring must have had something to do with it.

[Steto Kafal]

I think it had a greater affect on Smeagol becuase he had it in his possession for such a long time, and he was also by himself most of that time. Bilbo, Frodo and Sam were always in contact with other people and they did not have it as long as him.

Does anyone agree?

[Nienna]

Possibly,

but I think Smeagol probably had a little evil in him to begin with to act so violently at the mere sight of the ring.

[barrelrider110]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

So far, everyone seems to think that several things are at work: The ring was exerting its power trying to get back to his master and that the ring had an immediate effect on Bilbo as well.

[

Gandalf:
Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he had "won" it, and I could not believe it. When I at last got the truth out of him, I saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. Much like Gollum with his "birthday present". The lies were too much alike for my comfort. Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once.

There is disagreement, however, whether or not Sméagol was inherently evil or merely weak.

I also think Sméagol was relatively young and immature at the time the ring was found and more susceptable to its power.

Nothing about his age is mentioned, but from Gandalf's version of the story Sméagol was nosing around while Déagol was fishing, and not very seriously fishing at that, he allowed a large fish to drag him from the boat.

Bilbo on the other hand had come of age, he was 50. Bilbo also had Gandalf with him, which must have helped a great deal.

I don't think Sméagol was evil. Bilbo had an inherent goodness in him that Sméagol didn't. A goodness that prevented him from killing Gollum, even after he was in possession of the ring.

Even Sméagol showed some fortitude. He successfully kept the ring hidden from its master for many years.... no small feat.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by barrelrider110
Even Sméagol showed some fortitude. He successfully kept the ring hidden from its master for many years.... no small feat.

I agree with all the other things you said but I'm not entirely OK with the last thing. Although Gollum succesfully hid the ring from every one- even from Sauron- I don't think he was looking for it already. Bilbo had it for many years after Gollum and only during that time did Sauron stir.

[Renille]

I don't think Sméagol was evil. Bilbo had an inherent goodness in him that Sméagol didn't. A goodness that prevented him from killing Gollum, even after he was in possession of the ring.

Right. But remember, Gollum didn't kill Frodo or Sam even when he had the chance. So inherently, Smeagol must have been SOME type of good. But the ring had twisted it to evil.

[Garina]

In the book when Frodo is at Rivendell and Bilbo asks to see the Ring, doesn't he see Bilbo as a kind of grasping little creature? I think that if Gandalf hadn't got him to give up the Ring he would have turned into something similar to Gollum.

I don't think Gollum was inherently evil, cos Gandalf says that Deagol's murder haunted him, the murder was very much an impulse thing that he felt terrible about afterwards. Obviously that doesn't excuse him.

I love the theory of the Ring using Frodo to hitch a ride to Mordor!

[Human#3.141592653]

I do think that the ring was infulencing our lovable little Frodo and Sam more than we like to admit. It is easy enough to say "Take it, Gandalf! Take it!" and "I will leave it on the mantle peice," than it really is to do so. Just a thought.
And whe you say corruption, do you mean the esistence of less substancial evil, the dualistic concept of evil rather then evil as a character trait r visa versa? I think i's under debate whether or not "the good Professor," entended (SP?) for an evil personified or corrutpion in the form...um...
You know what I'm telkign about???


Wait, I don't even know what I'm talkign about!
Never mind...

[azalea]

Originally posted by Garina
In the book when Frodo is at Rivendell and Bilbo asks to see the Ring, doesn't he see Bilbo as a kind of grasping little creature? I think that if Gandalf hadn't got him to give up the Ring he would have turned into something similar to Gollum.

I think that this speaks more to the effect the ring had on Frodo. He sees Bilbo as a grasping creature trying to take the ring from him. When Bilbo sees the change come over Frodo's face he (Bilbo) realizes what is happening, and then Frodo snaps out of it. I may be wrong, but this is the way I read it.

[Agburanar]

The ring had been away from Sauron for a shorter amount of time than it had when it passed to Bilbo and Frodo. Perhaps it's power was stronger and took effect on Smeagol more quickly.

[jerseydevil]

I had posted my conclusions on the Could ANYONE have willingly destroyed the Ring? thread - but I'll quote some of it here.

The Ring I feel worked and twisted what was already in the bearers heart. If you sought power or were evil - it twisted it to it's own end.

This is what I wrote in the other thread concerning Smeagol/Gollum...

Smeagol was corrupted immediately because of what was in is heart. No one really liked him even before he got the Ring. I'm sure he had a "one day I'll show them" attitude in his heart. With Smeagol - that is what the Ring used to corrupt him.

In addition - in the beginning he used the Ring to spy on people, to steal and so forth. They started kicking him like a dog and he was finally forced out of his village. He had no sense of "world domination" power - similar to the hobbits in the shire. When the Ring discovered that it could not get back to Mordor through Gollum - it hitched onto the first ride that came along - Bilbo. Bilbo also wasn't seeking "world domination" and he didn't have the revengeful feelings that Smeagol had - so the Ring had less affect on him. It still had a powerful affect - but it wasn't making him into an evil being at that point. Over time he might have become. There is a sense of Frodo turning evil in the end of the quest. He would have attempted to kill Sam had Sam not freely given the Ring back to him.

[barrelrider110]

Originally posted by Jerseydevil:
Smeagol was corrupted immediately because of what was in is heart. No one really liked him even before he got the Ring. I'm sure he had a "one day I'll show them" attitude in his heart. With Smeagol - that is what the Ring used to corrupt him.

This is made up. The only clue to Smeagol’s behavior prior to the appearance of the ring in the following paragraph in FotR Chapter 2 The Shadow of the Past:

There was among them a family of high repute, for it was large and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had. The most inquisitive and curious-minded of that family was called Sméagol. He was interested in roots and beginnings; he dived into deep pools; he burrowed under trees and growing plants; he tunneled into green mounds; and he ceased to look up at the hill-tops, or the leaves on trees, or the flowers opening in the air: his head and his eyes were downward.

You can make a case for Sméagol’s inherent evilness because of the murder of Déagol and his niggling behavior, which were evident after the appearance of the ring. Equally convincing arguments also have been made to the contrary, based on ramblings of the dissociative personalities of "Slinker and Stinker" in LotR book IV chapter 1 "The Taming of Smeagol." You can't support an argument with a conclusion that you've drawn.

I could say that since Sméagol was young, he was weak and the ring had a much more immediate and profound effect on him. However, that's only a hypothesis, and I can't use that to support my argument that Sméagol was not evil, merely weak and ill-equipped to resist the power of the one ring.

[jerseydevil]

I guess you are right. I could have sworn in something I had read concerning Smeagol that it said that no one really liked him before he found the Ring. That he was basically an outcast because he wasn't interested in all the stuff that the "people" around him were interested in. Also - that he was never very nice to begin with.

I can't really look any of this up right now - because all my Tolkien books and references are packed away in storage right now. Hopefully I'll get them during the summer or in October so I can look this up more fully.

For whatever reason - the Ring had a strong affect on Smeagol. He was influenced by it without even touching it - enough even to murder his friend for it. No where in LotR that I can remember - other than maybe Boromir - was anyone consumed by the Ring without even touching it.

[Claenoic]

But there must have been SOME good in him. I believe he was just a bit weak minded. And a habit of jewelry fondling. But on a more serious note

There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark: light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things.

- Gandalf Greyhame

That shows that he did once at least take joy in growing things and all that good stuff. And the ring sends out bad karma (sorry for using 70's slang )