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02-10-2003, 05:22 AM | #21 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Hello
Just a quick question for now: Quote:
Sun?? I thought that there was only starlight when the Elves woke. Correct me if I'm wrong... cheers d. Last edited by Dunadan : 02-10-2003 at 05:23 AM. |
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02-10-2003, 05:44 AM | #22 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Quote:
I have no idea whether that quote is related to Myths transformed, though. But quick questions deserve quick answers
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02-10-2003, 12:07 PM | #23 | |||
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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OK, now a longer answer
Thanks for that. Let's assume that the Sil takes precedence for now.
I too am confused by the ambivalent attitude of the Valar towards the Elves. It seems at odds with their "we love all of Arda" personae in earlier chapters. However, I think this chapter starts to set out the limitations of their earthly forms a bit more clearly (physical, mental and moral), while at the same time muddying the waters as to what's to come. Clearly, Quote:
Previously, I'd thought that all the elves' troubles could be traced to Feanor, but I've now changed my mind. The pivotal moment is where the Valar decree that they are to be summoned to Aman; after that, the elves have no free will. Which brings me to my second point: muddy waters. What do you think about Mandos saying: Quote:
Does he mean "This is how it has always been doomed, and now you've realised it I thought I'd just add a rather pompous portentious comment to underline it."? Or does he mean "Now that you've decided it, you've doomed the elves."? The answer goes back to the issue of free will. Have the valar robbed them of it, or did they never have it in the first place? Maybe that's what the Valar couldn't get their heads around: they were afraid of free will. More generally, in this chapter we're seeing the language change to one of ambiguity. Stuff like: Quote:
cheers d. |
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02-10-2003, 03:18 PM | #24 |
Long lost mooter
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Can Iluvatar be wrong? No, I certainly don't think so. But the big question is Were the Valar's actions part of his plan, or was it his plan to let them act as they would in governing Arda? He would either have orchestrated the whole thing beforehand (orchestrated, get it?) or he would have set things up and let the chips fall where they may based on the actions of the Valar (aside from deciding where and when the children would awake -- and had he already decided where and when, or did he decide later based on what was happening?)
I tend to think he foresaw what would happen, and since it was all part of his greater plan, what the Valar did became incidental (in a larger sense, not meaning to make their actions sound unimportant), since he was in charge anyway. Thus, I think the Valar were not acting out any preordained plan, but were acting of their own freewill, trying to govern as they felt Eru would want it, but then acting somewhat contrary to his plan it would seem ("okay, things are getting messed up, let's jump ship") I liken it to the statement in the Ainulindale (?) that although Melkor "messed up" the music, it would only serve to further Iluvaltar's own plan. Likewise, the actions of the Valar could not ultimately be "wrong," because what ever course of action they took and whatever events were set in motion as a result would always lead back to the right "path." I guess that means there is no "should have" necessary, just as Gandalf counseled Frodo re: Bilbo's pity of Gollum (it always seems to lead back to LotR for me! ). What was the question again? |
02-10-2003, 04:55 PM | #25 |
AngAdan
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1. In myths transformed JRRT clarified that to a substantial extent before this time the Valar were kept out of ME by the power of Melkor, and their overestimation of that power, and that they were suprised that their vicotry over Melkor was not much more difficult, and were suprised at how much Kmelkor had dissapated his power.
As to Imin, Tatya, & Enel, the first Elves, they may have been mythological, or may have perished during Melkors predations. In any case the Elves had little leadership structure at or before this time, being barely tribal, and the strong personalities of Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were able to organized them. I suspect many of the non finwean Noldor princes, like Glofindal, Gulin, Gwindor, may have the status in part by claimed descent from Tatya. |
02-10-2003, 05:00 PM | #26 |
AngAdan
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3. some of these dark monster may have been non reproductive 'mules' and thus died out, others may have lacked enough self preservation untinct (being bred deliberately for war) or luck to have hidden and survied the war in breeding populations.
Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 02-10-2003 at 05:01 PM. |
02-10-2003, 08:16 PM | #27 | |
The Tall
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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02-10-2003, 11:44 PM | #28 |
Long lost mooter
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Maedhros, you are so cryptic! I can't tell if you're actually supporting what I'm saying or being sarcastic!
Let's assume you're being sarcastic, and your implication is that Feanor's rebellion (getting ahead of ourselves, but oh, well) was the cause of all future troubles in ME. I meant that ULTIMATELY Iluvatar's plan must be adhered to, so the whole Feanor fiasco and all that it caused STILL only led back to what Iluvatar envisioned, I presume with manipulation from him along the way. It is possible that there were an infinite number of possible "looks" to the path to the final outcome (whatever that may be), and that the Feanor freak out, etc., was just the "look of the path" that ended up taking place. There were perhaps more desirable ways it could have looked, and I certainly don't understand why Iluvatar would have allowed all of the suffering of innocents that took place as a result of this, but neither do I understand his allowing Melkor reign over Arda as he did, among other things. But I think his nature as Tolkien wrote him is omnipotent but allowing the free will of all. However, as all are his creation, any action they take will lead back to him and his music in the end. Am I clear? |
02-11-2003, 03:06 AM | #29 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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azalea, let's assume Maedhros is not sarcastic (I don't think he is btw), then I agree with him. Fëanor's rebellion caused the Noldor to return to Middle-Earth, and in the long years after they were the chief enemies of Melkor, restraining his power and postponing his evil dominance, whence the Valar sat in their ivory towers doing nothing. If you think of it, the rebellion could by subtle ways have been a part of Ilúvatar's design, either original or adapted, to bring some of the Elves back to Middle-Earth, from where they never should have left in the first place.
Lefty Scaevola, good point about the tribal structure of the Elves' community.
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02-11-2003, 03:37 AM | #30 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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So it is doomed
Quote:
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02-11-2003, 09:48 AM | #31 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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I agree. In which case, is this the moment at which the Valar attempt to deprive the Elves of their free will? And again, if so, who can blame Feanor for giving them the vickies and going back to ME?
Why wouldn't they be happy just to let them roam freely once Melkor was chained? Given what Melian achieved in Doriath, a few more of the Ainur going amongst the Elves would have helped them to more than repair the damage he'd caused. Another ambiguous thing which interests me is the reference to the "whispers" which Melkor sent abroad against the Valar. How?? I thought the Elves were the first (non-Ainur) to make words.. cheers d. Last edited by Dunadan : 02-11-2003 at 09:50 AM. |
02-11-2003, 10:19 AM | #32 | ||
The Tall
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Quote:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. Last edited by Maedhros : 02-11-2003 at 10:21 AM. |
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02-11-2003, 01:18 PM | #33 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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re: Doom (NOT the computer game!)
Quote:
Rather, I think it's kind of a "so be it" comment that means "well, this was a pretty important subject, and we've talked a lot about it, and now we've come to a final decision, although some may disagree, to summon the Elves to Valinor. So be it - let the chips fall where they may." IOW, I think 'doom' was meant in the 'decree' sense of the word.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-11-2003, 01:52 PM | #34 | |||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Dunadan, I'm going to agree with R*an now , on the meaning of the word 'doomed'. My answer was clearly ambiguous, and perhaps you read me wrong. I was just stating that I believe free will do always exist, and nothing is completely outlaid in advance.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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02-11-2003, 02:24 PM | #35 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Re: re: Doom (NOT the computer game!)
Quote:
The thing is, did they change the fates of the Elves by doing so? Were the elves thus consigned to dwindle into obscurity unless they responded to the summons? It's clear that the elves still retained free will, but that the Valar didn't understand it, or else they wouldn't have tried to remove it. It also seems that the elves were made to pay for it in spades throughout the ages that followed. cheers d. |
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02-11-2003, 02:51 PM | #36 | |
Long lost mooter
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Quote:
That's why I thought you might have been sarcastic, because to me it seemed to bring "doom" to ME: that is a main cause of the Valar going with an even more "hands off" approach. I just couldn't tell one way or the other if you were supporting my post, so I took the default mode of giving further opinion to back it up. I was going to say, "If you weren't, then just ignore the above defense. ," but I forgot. Does that clear it up? Am I forgiven? I will not doubt your intentions again. Dunadan, I agree with what you just said. |
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02-11-2003, 04:35 PM | #37 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Now we're getting into that tricky area of free will again - difficult concept to talk about...
Quote:
Quote:
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And somewhere, I can't remember where, it says that those that went to Valinor were greater than those that didn't, and that was because of their contact with the Valar; so that is definitely a good that was gained.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 02-11-2003 at 04:37 PM. |
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02-11-2003, 08:14 PM | #38 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Re: It is doomed
I will note that JRRT used "doom" both to mean "disaster" and "destiny". Remember in Faramir's dream, the Voice says that "Doom is near at hand." Boromir reads it as "disaster" and is reprimanded by Gandalf. "The words were not "the doom of Minas Tirith." I.e., the older, and to me, the far more interesting meaning of the word, "predestined outcome." IMHO, if he had sait, "So, they are doomed," it would have meant that the elves were destined for disaster, that what they were doing would be evil for the elves. But, he said, "It is doomed," akin to Gandalf's "That is the doom we must deem." That seemed to me to mean that "it was inevitable."
Oh, and I will be a member of any party that gets together to watch Tulkas put a can of whup-ass on Melkor. Good discussion.
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02-12-2003, 12:01 AM | #39 |
The Tall
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aaa
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. Last edited by Maedhros : 02-12-2003 at 12:07 AM. |
02-12-2003, 08:50 AM | #40 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Quote:
If the Elves truly belonged in Middle-earth and not in Valinor, why did they fade then? Even the moriquendi would in time fade and become 'present and yet remote' to Men. (or so I remember, do correct me when I'm wrong) It doesn't seem logical. Or is it perhaps an after-effect from the original mistake of bringing the Elves to Valinor? So that by bringing them to Valinor they could never truly belong to Middle-earth anymore, even when they did return there? Any ideas on the connection? Quote:
Quote:
I don't think the Valar actually intended to rob the Elves of free will, but saw them more as children who are unfit to choose certain things for themselves. In the beginning the Elves may indeed have been much like that, after all they learned much in Valinor. I guess the Valar (much as many parents) just didn't understand the Elves enough to know that at one point they would be grown and want to decide things for their own, for good or for bad. In such a situation the rules of the Valar may have seemed more and more restrictive even if this was not the intention of the Valar.
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