How to create a better society

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I rather doubt it.

I knew someone would say that, that's why I say knowledge is power. Because of the things I have learned, I have alot more faith in humanity now.

Do you know 9-11 is not unique? Do you know that pearl harbor was the exact same thing? They knew about it and they allowed it to happen, in the case of 9-11, they planned it. Do you know that both world war one and 2 were orchestrated?

Every person believes wars are terrible and believe they should be avoided, yet we still have them, why? We are being manipulated

[The Telcontarion]

I don't think that we need to make anything manditory. If we were left alone we would have world peace already.

As it is we are being manipulated into war over and over again. Alqaeda did not destroy the towers eliments in the Us government did.

The buildings did not fall from the planes coliding into it, they were demolished. Why did WTC building 7 fall when no planes hit it.

Think about it, how can the government know when a misssile is fired from any where in the world within a few seconds and not see 3 planes flying oof course for 40 minuits, not responding to the radio and they were not intersepted. You have people who get intercepted flying off course for less than 15 minuites with any explanation. Buildings do not fall straight down into it's footprint naturally. It had to be demolished which means there were bombs on the columns, and that meant months of planning by people who had access to those intereior columns; alqaeda could not do that. You really think that a bunch of guys in caves planeed that and flew those planes.

Let me brake it down because the truth is stranger than fiction or any movie. Just as in star wars where the senator palpitine is playing both sides against each other, this is exactly what is happening in reality. President Bush is not your president, he did not win the last election or the first. Did you know that there is no paper trail with these new voting machines. Did you know that they recently dedicated a statue to bush, that states when his presidecy begun in 2000 but no end date. Even though by the constitution he can only run for 8 years the left the end date blank people!!! Do you get it yet!!!

The US trained Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Huesan, did you know that!!!

Do you know that...I could go on and on, but if you don't want another false war aimed at distracting us while these facist murderers take over the world, by bringing back the draft. China threatens to bomb us all the time with nuclear wepons that they actually have and they are talking about Iran?!! It's not about people trying to terrorize us, it's about people that has no bombs that we can actually terrorize into our slave system, without fear of them justly bombing the livin daylights out of us.

Let me just finish by saying, if anything do not take any micro chip for any reason, do not give your children any vaccines (it causes autism-yes!!! among other things-do the research).

Important links:
infowars.com
prisonplanet.com
originofaids.com
www.healthyworlddistributing.com

Videos:
911-the road to tyranny

That is how you make a pefect society, stop being manipulated through your fears, how you do that? Knowledge is power!!! Get informed, they are taking you for fools and they are laughing at you. Google "Alex Jones"!!!

[Elfhelm]

"if left alone" hmmm... so you think we could create a better society by leaving people alone and not making anything madatory? Because "create" is a verb. Doing nothing is more like un-creating. And society either exists as people interacting, or not at all. So really, if we all wander off like Lao Tzu and go fishing, yes, there would be no war, but there wouldn't be a society either. Plus, I'm sure there would be a fight about who gets to fish in the best spots. So you'd have to make a law about that, eventually. Sure, at first you could just tell them that fighting is too loud and it scares the fish away, but eventually you'll have to make someone an outcast. That's the way they do it in primitive societies. Cooperate or we don't share food. And speaking of shring food. If we're all out there fishing like Lao Tzu, what if some of us catch a lot of fish and some of us catch no fish? Have you got a system for daily food redistribution?

I do think that studying the methods of primitive societies is very instructive. Colin Turnbull's book, the Forest People, probably illustrates the lives of our prehistoric ancestors, if cultural uniformitarianism is applied.

But what about today? What about the world we have inherited and which we will pass on to our children?

I'm not sure there is a whole lot we can do to alter the flow of this river. All we can do is try to clean up the water and hope it's cleaner for our kids. What they do with it after that is beyond us.

So I think the biggest problem is prejudice. And I think the solution is to understand each other by listening (reading, studying) and giving each other respect.

But, of course, what about those who don't give others respect? Who won't play along? Who want to maintain their ethnocentrism out of mental laziness? Mandatory education.

Naturally, fringe groups will want to emphasize their ethnic purity and will use violence to assert the domination of their own culture above all others. For that I recommend patience. The peaceful person might be slain by the violent one, but I think in the long run people prefer to live in peace and will trust the teachings of a person who turns the other cheek.

As Táhirih said before she was executed for removing her veil, you can kill me anytime but you cannot stop the emancipation of women. And she was right. They killed her, but that half of the species is slowly gaining equality with ours. And most of humanity reviles her murderers.

[The Telcontarion]

Well absolutely, what you said is my point exactly. I think people left to their own divices are reasonable and can and would work together effectively; even to share fish or not to share fish or deal with a murderer who might harm them. I am not saying we don't need laws nor am I saying we do.

The more important question is why we are being played off against each other and by whom. If humans would naturely get along, who is creating war. All I can say is I used to be an atheist and now I am not. I am not just talking here, you owe to yourself and your family to get informed.

[Landroval]

So really, if we all wander off like Lao Tzu and go fishing, yes, there would be no war, but there wouldn't be a society either.

Lao Tzu didn't argue against living in society, nor did he specifically exclude war, as long as it is in accordance with the Path; many daoists were proeminent rulers in their time.

Plus, I'm sure there would be a fight about who gets to fish in the best spots.

This vision of zero-sum game is permanently imposed on us, it creates a constant state of fear and competition and only leads to atomy and anomy, isolation and the disrespect of the laws.

Have you got a system for daily food redistribution?

Retribution according to effort; the most equitable one, imo.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Lao Tzu didn't argue against living in society, nor did he specifically exclude war, as long as it is in accordance with the Path; many daoists were proeminent rulers in their time.

This vision of zero-sum game is permanently imposed on us, it creates a constant state of fear and competition and only leads to atomy and anomy, isolation and the disrespect of the laws.

Retribution according to effort; the most equitable one, imo.

Wow!!! Exactly the point I am tryimg to make.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Lao Tzu didn't argue against living in society, nor did he specifically exclude war, as long as it is in accordance with the Path; many daoists were proeminent rulers in their time.

This vision of zero-sum game is permanently imposed on us, it creates a constant state of fear and competition and only leads to atomy and anomy, isolation and the disrespect of the laws.

Retribution according to effort; the most equitable one, imo.

I'm referring to Lao Tzu's personal choice here. He choose to leave society.

Taoists aren't necessarily followers of Lao Tzu. And I wasn't talking about Taoists. I was refering, again, to Lao Tzu's lifestyle.

Telcontarion, I don't think Landroval actually agrees with you. Redistribution according to effort? hmmm... how do you measure the effort of people fishing? Twenty fishermen all fish all day. Only some catch fish. Where is there a metric for effort calculated there? And what if two of them have grandparents still living in their homes, while three are unmarried, and ten have two kids while the rest have only on kid?

[The Telcontarion]

Well let me just say quite simply, humans if left to themselves would find a way to take care of those elderly people who can't fish for themselves.

I am not talking out off my rear here, I am talking from how people have lived on this planet for millenia. I did anthropoligy. I learned that there are several types of social structures, eg.

"According to Polanyi, in modern capitalist economies the concepts of formalism and substantivism coincide since people organise their livelihoods based on the principle of rational choice. However, in 'primitive' economies this assumption does not hold. Unlike their Western capitalist counterparts, they are not based on market exchange but on redistribution and reciprocity. Reciprocity is defined as the mutual exchange of goods or services as part of long-term relationships. Redistribution implies the existence of a strong political centre such as kinship-based leadership, which receives and then redistributes subsistence goods according to culturally-specific principles. In societies that are not market-based reciprocity and redistribution usually occur together. Conversely, market exchange is seen as the dominant mode of integration in modern industrial societies, while reciprocity may continue in family and inter-household relations, and some redistribution is undertaken by the state or by charitable institutions."

In class the group talked about in this regard, was the african bushman. Cultures like these are usually characterized by a lack of materialism (a good example would be the movie, the gods most be crazy). They knew niether povety or hunger. They shared everything, there was no discontent; I said was, because now since western colonism things have changed. They no longer are allowed to live on the ancestral lands through conservatism; now living in cities they are mostly houseless and poor.

Do you know that most of the people starving in these african countries are so because the fertile lands spaning thousands of acres are all taken up by European farmers. Again manufactured crisis. Africa is abondant yet people starve. But you see, if the people had choice the harder it would be to control them. Why you think you pay so much for oil when free energy technology has existed for over 30 years. Why you think people go bankrupt laying in hospitile beds dieng of cancer when there has been a cure for cancer for about 30 years now. Get with it buddy!!!

[Elfhelm]

But what if I don't want to "get with it"?

See? How will we deal with those who are not willing to get with it?

A lot of people don't believe there is a cure for cancer yet or free energy technology or that 911 was an inside job. Yet clearly you are aware of these truths. How do we deal with those who simply can't imagine that the global military-industrial complex is enacting conspiracies to fabricate a need for its continued existence?

Since we can't share everything anymore as our ancestors did because it's communism, and we can be jailed for wearing an anti-war teeshirt too close to the President, what actual, specific changes do you think will help today?

My answer is to target racism and religious intolerance. All the other stuff will fall like dominoes if we can make cultural imperialism a bad thing to do. And my method is education in global studies and the classics.

[The Telcontarion]

Well, exactly what I have been doing, speaking my truth without out fear of pursecution or capitulating with evil wiether at home, school or work to get ahead in life.

I certainly don't believe in fighting war with war all you get is more war.

As for the people that won't get with it, well the answer is more simple than you think. You see, I don't believe there is anyone who is not with it, let me explain.

Do you know that the violence you have heard about anti-war protestors is manufactured; police officers planted in crowds pretending to be protestors trying to insight violence. In palistine, the suicide bombers are israeli government provocators, and the average jew does not know this. Even in ireland, with the nra and the protestant vs th catholics, it has been the english government that has been paying provocators all these years; as soon as the people try to unit they engineer some bombing or murder spree. Even now in iraq, iraqis are confused because they never class themselves as suni or sheaite, but all of a sudden when they are about to get their country back and unit, sheaites are bombing sunis so US troops have to stay even longer because, "the iraqis can't take care of their own country, " bull****!!!!

Perfect example, black people in america. How many terrorists actions have black people taken against white people in america, as part of an organized racial attack, none!!!! People, do not feel guilty about slavery for it was a manufactured evil as well not a natural progression of humanity; there has been a war against god for a long time and his peolpe. To understand more of the importance of africa, (Egypt, Ethiopia) go to http://www.ossama-alsaadawi.com/_private/main.htm. Did you know it is not the first time something like this happened on 911; what is the importance of 911. September 11, is the Ethiopian new year, they go by a different completely accurate calender; no leap year fart. So instead of renewal we have what, usher in the new year with distruction fear and death. Just like the swastika, the nazis flipped it around to indicate the negitive and used it as there symbol.

Think!!! You really believe some houseless person in palistine is going to strap bombs to themselves or fly a plane into a building; would you.

I could go on, but I will say this, we would have no soldiers in iraq if they, even when they knew they didn't want to go-wiether because they don't like war or they believe the cause unjust-would have refused, to, go. Simple. No more war overnight!!! I have hope my friends, that when these satanic devil worshiping peices of filth decide to blow somethiong up again and say iran did it, they soldiers are not going anywhere. Now what you gonna do bitch...I mean bush!!!

[Elfhelm]

I don't get it. How can everyone be with it when most people don't believe those interpretations of current event? All we have to do is tell them to think with multiple exclamation points and they'll get with it? They'll suddenly open their minds to our truth?

[The Telcontarion]

I feel you, but the way I see it is that if the people did what they really wanted to do like eg. "We would have no soldiers in iraq if they, even when they knew they didn't want to go...would have refused, to, go."

The problem is, people don't do what they believe in, they do what peer pressure and society in general wants them to do; that's the problem, people give away there power everyday. The army is a perfect example of that, where you are trained to take orders without question, which is rediculous. And every one acts like that's cool and sensible, it's madness.

But like I keep saying (and this is the bigger picture my friends) we are being manipulated through all these systems, customs, social pressures into these things; but by whom, you owe it to yourself to answer that question yourself.

...you know what I'll just through some tidbits out there:

-CIA and satanism
-secrets of the CIA
-Skull and Bones (bush and kerry are members and they are cousins-they admitted it themselves on national tv)
-bohemian grove
-bilderbergh group

David Icke!!!

[The Telcontarion]

If people don't check out what I have to say, as serious in nature as it is, they deserve whatever they get; at that point I could not care less. It's there children are going to get drafted and go to iran and snort dipleted uranium and when they get blown up and manage to survive, they are charged for their body armor that got destroyed, the are charged for the meals they eat while in the military hopital, they are sometimes charged for their flight home. So let them go ahead because I am doing this out of maliciousness without proof.

I am not trying to convince anyone I am only trying to warn them, if they don't want to listen, how is this my problem. Why hate the messenger; not that I'm saying you are Elfhelm. However you say most peolpe don't know these versions or agree with it, I be to differ:Recently charlie sheen spoke about 911 on the alex jones show, subsequently there was a pole on cnn to see how many people agreed with sheen. The pole numbers ended at 83% of americans agreeing with charlie sheen; links to the audio interview is below:

http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/200306sheen.htm (ist interview)

http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/240306sheen.htm (2nd interview)

[Elfhelm]

83% of people agreeing with Charlie Sheen doesn't mean 83% of people think 911 was an inside job. That's an awfully big leap.

Anyway, you say if people don't check out what you're laying down, they deserve what they get and you could "care less".

OK, but this thread is called "how to create a better society", and in my opinion apathy is one of the problems.

[The Telcontarion]

Listen the sooner those gollable idiots go ahead and march off to war for no good reason and kill themselves the better. God said there will be a remnant; I believe I will be part of the remnant. I don't suffer fools litely.

I think I have shown enough apathy by believing in love and freedom enough to put my ass on the line and post these things on the web risking these degenerate bastards finding some excuse to jail me. You can't possibly mean I owe them anything, if anything they owe me!!!

[Elfhelm]

You aren't the only one who feels that way. But the more people who feel that way, the worse things get. It's actually an illusion. In fact, we are all ignorant. In fact, we all depend on each other. In fact, you are not superior to any of them. It's just a sickness of our culture. We are all slightly megamaniacal! Time to meditate and make the superiority complex evaporate.

a good book for you:
http://www.judithsills.com/excessbaggage.asp

[The Telcontarion]

but you have a very good point, I did not mean to sound condesending. I suppose it's frustration more than me feeling better than anyone; certainly not.

There is only so much I can do, and people have to get in the habit of not dismissing things that they have no experience with before researching it first; there is a point at which I can go insane trying to convince people that sometimes act, like they would kill me just for saying what I am saying; I actually had a class mate say he wished I was like the maya because then i would be dead; after trying to help someone and getting a thanks like that ... quite frankly, it is very depressing.

So for me, (which doesn't mean it goes for you-certainly not) I will give the knowledge, let their reactions wash over me and leave them to their devices. I am not going to sacrifice my sanity on the alter of apathy.

[Zilbanne]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

OK, but this thread is called "how to create a better society", and in my opinion apathy is one of the problems.

Yes Elfhelm. Apathy and in the U.S. anyway, being too isolated and perhaps insulated by what is happening in the rest of the world.

[The Telcontarion]

I was going over the thread again and noticed there were things some of you said that I never got a chance to point and let you know I agree with you. I got too caught up in my tirade, so:

Zilbanne- your "review board" awesome idea!!!!

Gwaimir Windgem- "and go back to a more classical education." Another amen!!

Elfhelm-Most everything you said of course just a little less apathy; enough is enough already, people are dying; over 200,000 have died in Iraq.

[The Telcontarion]

Apathy, was used by me out of context (so stupid) I got it confused with empathy; I guess it was the way you used it Elfhelm that but the misconception in my head. Now everything you said and my replies to it mean totally different things; I meant empathy everytime I used apathy, which still applies since is how feel about having to much empathy with people who don't have eyes see and ears to hear the truth.

Now I can rightly say, I am not indifferent at all, I do my part; many do nothing.