02-07-2009, 02:38 PM | #21 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Terrible decision-making - well, not really. They followed orders and went to consult the WK whenever they met a problem. Most likely they learned by bitter experience not to take too much responsibilty upon themselves, but leave it to the Captain. Don't forget, at the end the Captain successfuly talked the enraged Sauron out of punishing them. Reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight is a drawback of living in the Spirit World. It was balanced by their increased cognitive abilities at night and extra-senses they had. Quote:
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02-07-2009, 03:24 PM | #22 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Now, the artistic flair of the Nazgûl, although it may sound ridiculous in the silly words I used, it isn't ridiculous per se. I don't think they had much of it. The notion that the Nazgûl weren't thinking straight and had some heavy Sauron-induced inhibitions on their artistic abilities is right up the alley with everything else evil stirring in Mordor. There's as much involuntary mangling in the malice of Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr as there as voluntary. Sauron himself reached a stage in the latter parts of his 'life' where even he could not alter the evil of himself, and thus could not appear fair. Instead he had to settle for second best, shrowding his black tower in a permanent shadow. But I'm off! Wish u all a good night=)
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02-07-2009, 10:11 PM | #23 |
Elf Lord
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Maybe, but the orc Snaga specifically says "I fought for the Tower against the Morgul-rats", so the name was at least in use among the orcs.
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02-08-2009, 03:54 AM | #24 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Writing the "sequel to the Hobbit" Tolkien wanted the heroes to be in grave peril all the time but to get through alive and well. At the time, the author was not prepared to kill anyone: not even a secondary character. When logically he was being compelled to do in one of the hobbits (Odo, a precursor of Fatty who was supposed to be captured at Crickhollow), he just dropped the whole plotline. Thus inevitably the nazgul come out as very ineffectual and very kind - not chopping off a single head in the whole FOTR. And take the delay between the escape by the Ferry and the attack on Crickhollow - 4-5 days, when realistically the nazgul could have been there the next night. The only reasn is that for literary puropses Tolkien wanted the attack on Crickhollow to occur the same night as the attack on the inn at Bree. As a result, poor Khamul's reputation suffered: the excuses and explanations given in the Hunt for such a delay sound lame. Quote:
Another matter if you wish to discuss the scenery in the Morgul vale: all these meadows of white flowers and evil-looking statues etc.: was it to frighten the unwanted intruders or was it the nazgul vision of beauty? Here there could be a fine discussion, I believe. Quote:
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02-08-2009, 12:06 PM | #25 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 02-08-2009 at 12:08 PM. |
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02-08-2009, 02:32 PM | #26 | ||||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Not at all. It is clearly visible from the drafts of the Fellowship (Home 6-7).
There were much altered timelines for the hobbits' and Gandalf's movements, but the Black riders appeared when it was necessary for the narrative, not when it was logical for them to appear: Quote:
The "Hunt for the Ring" appeared later, when the narrative had been completed and published, it only tried to explain what the nazgul were doing during the allotted time intervals - and unfortunately these explanations were sometimes quite lame. Why was the plot with a captured hobbit abandoned? It is not a speculation, here is the quote: Quote:
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02-08-2009, 03:03 PM | #27 | |||||
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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This is why I regard the Nazgul as overrated by the Wise. As you so cogently quote, "unreasoning fear" was their primary weapon. I recently reread John Keegan's The Face of Battle, and saw how he ascribed the defeat of the much larger French army at Agincourt, as well as the repulse of D'Erlon's initial infantry attack and the French Guard's attack on Wellingon's center at Waterloo as due not so much to the fighting "head" of the columns, who seem to acquitted themselves quite well in all cases but the spread of panic towards the rear of each of these columns. This seems to have been a factor at Helm's Deep, the Pellenor, and the final assault of the Black Gate. Tolkein, as a soldier, would have been familiar with this phenomenon, which seems to have affected the Germans at the Battle of the Somme. Fear (on the enemy's part) is a great asset in any fight, but it can never be counted on, as the Witch-King and Sauron both found to their cost.
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02-08-2009, 04:37 PM | #28 | |
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So that's a point, the Nazgûl were from the very start disadvantaged, story-wise, by the fact that JRR Tolkien wouldn't permit any of them to hack down a defenceless hobbit or two out in the wild or in the confines of a hobbit-hole. But what JRR Tolkien shows with the pursuit between Hobbiton and Bree is that the Nazgûl simply lacked the foresight and skill in tracking down the hobbits and cornering them. When you read the Fellowship of the Ring, although the Nazgûl's fear-factor is quite palpable from the hobbit point-of-view, you come to realise that they are not at all 'in-sync' with their surroundings nor their task. Before they finally step out into the open, at night of course, at Weathertop, they seem more like severely inhibited soldiers-of-despair sent out on a task that is too steep a hill to climb. They're simply not up for it. So why were the Nazgûl ill-suited for their task? It seems the Nazgûl could not execute proper tactics that were adapted to the terrain that the hunt took place in, Eriador. It's a vast area of small towns and farms, woodlands and a great many places to hide. The Nazgûl, despite the fact that they are ancient Kings of Middle-Earth, and despite the fact, as Olmer raises in his 'Where's the beef'-theory, the Witch-King had his kingdom of Angmar just up the road, are inhibited by their own state of being. They don't feel familiar with Hobbiton, the Shire, Bree or any woodland in-between because if they ever knew anything about these places, I think they've mostly forgotten it. The Witch-King is quoted, from the Hunt for the Ring, in having a greater clarity of mind after the crossing and the attack on the rangers, but that only goes to show how severely hampered their minds already were; The cognitive functions, that work well for any other normal being living beneath the sun-light of Eriador, simply aren't in a very good shape in the dark-natured, half-withered beings that the Nazgul are. In darkness, yes, they feel strengthened and are keen hunters, and that is natural. They have been the slaves of Sauron for centuries, in a land of darkness, and really the only thing one could really expect from them is that they know of nothing else. Perhaps that is also a point where Olmer's theory falls short: the notion that the Nazgûl were tired of their state of existence. I think they despaired, but as a heroin drug addict of many years would, the Nazgûl simply don't see an alternative. The darkness was as much a pain-killer as it was a pain and thus the Nazgûl were despite its sides of despair, uncontrollably compelled in serving absolutely the provider of the pain-killers, Sauron. The impression one is left with in the Fellowship of the Ring is that the Nazgûl were sent on a task that they really did not have the know-how to execute or the adaptability to engage in. Barred their obvious talents as nocturnal hunters, they were met with obstacles such as at least 12-hours a day of sunlight, unchartered terrain, the presence of rangers, the presence of Elves, the presence of Gandalf, the lack of local aid and last but not least, a fundamental misunderstanding of what hobbits were. If you couple that with poor cognitive functions, particularly during daylight, an overdependence on their fear-factor and a fear of water it's clear that it was Sauron who underequipped and undermanned his Ring-finding-expedition. And that is why an expedition founded on fear and not proper expertise did not work
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02-09-2009, 10:56 AM | #29 | |||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I was saying that they withdrew mostly because Frodo wielded the Barrow blade - the deadliest weapon for the nazgul. To wound Frodo was not a small feat in itself, while he was holding THAT blade: only the WK dared approach the poisonous little snake, the two other nazgul had stopped. Add to that that Frodo was wearing the One Ring "an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility" -L#246. It was a sacrilege to attack the wielder of the One Ring. In the process, the WK almost got killed himself. No wonder he was upset and frightened and took some time to recover. Then, even if the nazgul didn't follow the company with the Ring on their cross-country track (and how could they follow them with the horses?), they put ambushes at the main strategic spots: bridge of Mitheithel (Last Bridge) and at the Ford of Bruinen. In both cases they were right: the company did come there. If the nazgul were hindered, it was by a new factor: Glorfindel. And YES, a troop of Orcs would have served better in this case. A troop of Men (Black Numenoreans disguised as rangers) would have been ideal. But it was Sauron's choice to send the nazgul. All this is explained in the "Hunt" (UT): the nazgul were highly unsuitable for such a mission and only chosen because they were the only ones who could be trusted to bring Sauron his Precious and not pocket it along the way. Note: Sauron didn't send them because he hoped to get advantage by the fear they cause. Instead he recognized their fear as a disadvantage for that particular mission. But Sauron was paranoid, so no Orcs, no Men, only Nazgul. Quote:
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02-09-2009, 12:28 PM | #30 | |||
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The Nazgûl easily could have disembarked from their steeds, leaving one or two in charge of the horses further along the path, f.ex. at a strategic point such at the bridge of Mitheithel or the Ford of Bruinen, while the rest pursued the hobbits and Strider where they would least expect it, off-road. I completely agree. Sauron made an executive decision, and he chose to rely on the one factor that in the past had failed him before: the fear-factor. Perhaps Sauron also did overestimate his Nazgûl, forgetting the violent strains their enslaved mind were enduring, and hooked on his darkness. Right, but then again Tolkien didn't write a who-did-it-story in the Lord of the Rings Quote:
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You provided the exact quote I was looking for yourself, "The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter."
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02-09-2009, 03:10 PM | #31 |
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I'm not sure Sauron overestimated his Nazgul (though he probably did somewhat) as much as he underestimated his enemies. It had been long since anyone among men outside of Gondor had proved fearless against Nazgul. How could Sauron know at the time that a pure strain of Numenor remained in the north and that the rightful heir to the kingdoms not only lived but had the courage to face down not just one Nazgul but five at once?
Surely he expected the Men they would have to face would be more like Butterbur or even Bill Ferny. If there was no Aragorn, the Nazgul would have succeeded. So were they unsuited for the mission? Or merely unsuited to face the unexpected fearless enemy, the heir of Elendil?
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02-09-2009, 03:52 PM | #32 | ||||||
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02-09-2009, 03:52 PM | #33 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Anyway, this is not an attempt to explain Sauron, only to show how relatively powerless the Nazgul were. Look, let's assume that Frodo's Barrow-Blade was the equivalent of Merry's. Heck, let's go all the way and say that it was the greatest Wraith-bane in the history of Middle-earth, that one touch would turn a Nazgul into corpse-powder or whatever. This all begs the question of the Naguls' mission, to secure the Ring of Power. It was not the business of the Nazgul to preserve their own existences, but, like any other military asset, to accomplish their mission, at the risk of thier own non-life. The Orcs knew this: consider the piles of bodies at Parth Galen. The Nagul, ex-generals or the equivalent, all, must have known it, too. We must therefore assume that the only weapons they had were Fear, a spent bolt, already, and the Morgul-knife. If they had any other, Sauron would have required them to use it, even if by doing so they ended their existence but they did nothing but shadow the party and try to scare them, to be swept away by a river in flood and failed. Sauron must of known this, or they would have been punished instead of giving them "newsteeds and swifter." It is notable that we hear no more of them except as messengers and bogies, until the seige of Gondor, when we are expressly told that Sauron infused the Witch-King with greater power.
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02-09-2009, 04:01 PM | #34 | |||
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We can also forgive Sauron for implementing a strategy which was not entirely unreasonable: Going in fast, by stealth and snatching the ring before it ever reached Rivendell and before his enemies understand what is going on. But the tactics he chooses for this strategy aren't compatible with the manpower he sends, the Nazgûl. They seem incapable of reigning in the chill darkness they eminate when it's not needed, and thus simply cannot produce the fast stealthy approach that Sauron expects. **EDIT** Didn't see the newest posts! Quote:
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Concerning their mental health: no I'm not joking. The Witch-King here shows evidence that he had forgotten and had a confused understanding of the terrain ahead and the lay of the people, towns and land. When he is given prime information by the Dunlending his mind is refreshed. This is not a direct evidence that the Nazgûl have severely inhibited minds. But as I wrote in a previous post, it is likely that the Nazgûl being slaves of Sauron, being physically and psychologically scarred, suffer from not only a heroine-aliken addiction to darkness but also several other inhibitions like memory loss. Remember, they aren't human any longer. It was a long time since they were and it seems absurd that it has not affected their minds. It's a speculation, true, but it doesn't make it less likely. I agree whole-heartedly with this. It raises a good point about the task of the Nazgûl and what they were meant to accomplish: Retrieving the ring at any cost. If we consider the Hashashin of the times during the Caliphates, whom were highly-trained assassins meant to locate and kill (or even kidnap and retrieve) targets. They were obliged to do their best, they obliged to finish their mission and if neccessary, die trying.
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02-09-2009, 04:06 PM | #35 | |||
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EDIT: and in view of Coffeehouse's latest addition, I have to say that the nazgul didn't resemble Hashashin at all. They were not going to risk their lives - regardless of Sauron's wishes. Quote:
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02-09-2009, 04:17 PM | #36 |
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The Nazgul were sent because they were Sauron's only servants with any remote possibility of successfully completing the task. Sure, maybe a group of Black Numenoreans or even some Orcs may have been better suited to recovering the Ring, but they would have been completely unsuitable for returning the Ring to Sauron. Only the Nazgul would have given the Ring back. Sauron didn't make a poor choice by sending the Nazgul. It was the only choice he had.
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02-09-2009, 05:09 PM | #37 | |
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02-09-2009, 05:31 PM | #38 | |
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Regardless, the Nazgul had to be included in this mission. Some of the problems arising from their unsuitability (for instance, fear-factor vs stealth) simply could not be avoided. |
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02-09-2009, 05:31 PM | #39 | |
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Seen from a task-completion point of view its obvious then that the Nazgûl were a very poor choice. Just like the Hashashin, they were supposed to complete their task no matter the cost. The One Ring was the be all and end all to Sauron. They are in fact a disgrace to the profession that they were meant to serve in the hunt for the ring if they are unwilling to sacrifice their worthless wraight-lives for Sauron. And although they seem to be the only one's who would actually return the One Ring once it was retrieved, they were also the only one's who seemed unwilling to sacrifice their lives to obtain the One Ring. Which leaves one conclusion: Sauron was overstimated by the Wise, he did not have the awesome power they hyped him up to have.
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02-09-2009, 05:41 PM | #40 | ||
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The only question might be why no living, normal men accompanied them to “Shire” to find “Baggins”. Could no living men endure their company that long? |
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