05-13-2005, 05:47 PM | #21 | |
Elf Lord
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well excuse me bud but i totally disagree: how many mearas WERE THERE??? were they ten a penny? Steal a (rare anyway) black one from Rohan and get one free??? NO! IMHO the Mearas were (please correct me if there is evidence to the contrary anywhere) the Mearas were both rare and even rarer in these days, and the black horses AS raided and stolen rather than given in any tribute were rarer still. Shadowfax was the last of his kind the Rohirrim think and say. He was Chieftan: were then EVERY rare Blackhorse carted off to Sauron and Mordor ALL Lesser Mearas? Gordis: My general (initial to be sure) take is that they did take a lot of training and selection for sure: but THEY would SURELY have back-ups: IF it was SO hard and SO MASSIVELY AGAINST THE ODDS TO ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO TRAIN ANY HORSE TO BE RIDDEN BY A RIDER * presses caps lock* then they would just NOT consider riders on horseback at all. Therefore the facT that they DID suggests that WHILST NOT any easy exercise it wasn't totally impossible at all. I am open to your original idea: but to be fair would need therefore some serious convincing! PS PYTT: didn't mean to be rude or anything with above post! just the way it rolled off the typer! best BB |
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05-13-2005, 05:52 PM | #22 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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Further, if there were more than one fell beast (and how long did it take for them to be raised to adulthood and trained) per Nazgul (remember that at least one has been felled by Legolas, yet nine are in the air), surely he's thought enough ahead to provide multiple horses? Quote:
I don't know that Gandalf was surprised so much as this was the signal that Sauron felt strong enough to do something, and of course since they were riding north, Gandalf had Frodo and the Ring to worry about. He did after all already know that Gollum had been in Mordor and been there sometime and that Sauron may have learned of the Ring--so he was more concerned and afraid and in haste than surprised. Quote:
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05-14-2005, 02:46 AM | #23 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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FB, you said that the Nazgûl did not have to train them, just visit everynow and again. I disagree.
If you were taken hostage, and your captors did not have guns, you would be scared stiff, when a guy visits with a gun, as you would be everytime he isits. If however he was you captor, then after a while you would grow use to there being a man with a gun, and you wouldn't be as scared, you'd just be cautious. IMO it's that same with the Nazgûl. If they just visited, the horses would be scared stiff every time they came. If the Nazgûl trained them, they'd get use to the Nazgûl.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-14-2005, 06:41 AM | #24 | ||
The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles
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It couldn't be alot of Mearas left, but we know Sauron got horses stealed from Rohan, and I don't think it is uncapable for his forces to get Mearas too. If they first got more than one Mearas, couldn't they mate them, and so get more Mearas? I would believe that was possible. And about the black horses, if they first got their hands on a white mearas, they could somehow change the color to black. Only something I think, off course. But the strongest prove as I see it, is their speed as Gordis have showed. Quote:
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Don't Panic! Last edited by Pytt : 05-14-2005 at 06:42 AM. |
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05-14-2005, 12:25 PM | #25 | |
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Take modern horse training. The jockey, the actual rider of the horse, doesn't train the horse, or feed it, or do daily exercise. He stops by from time to time to ride and horse and rider come to know and be accustomed to one another. But there are others who do the training, grooming, feeding, exercise etc. Same here. The Nazgul probably have to be present more often than the modern jockey because of the fear that they would inculcate, but that doesn't mean that they have to take the time to do the actual training and care and feeding of the animals. And of course we're all talking about this without reference to Sauron's power and knowledge--spells and herbs and such things. FB |
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05-15-2005, 06:07 AM | #26 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Born and Bred are two different things. If they were only bred by Sauron, that does not mean tehy were born with him. Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgûl. Nazgûl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys.
IIRC it never says when the horses were stolen, but it can't be that long before the hunt for the Ring, as before then the Nazgûl were not clad in robes, so the only trace of them passing would be a feeling of terror.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-15-2005, 03:00 PM | #27 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Please, believe me, I mean no offence. Really I don't. You may not want to know about such things. You have the right to feel the way you do. As for me, I am most interested in questions unanswered. And IMHO some of the questions may still be answered logically even if Tolkien had no time or interest to clarify them. Yes, it is conjecture. But: why not? Quote:
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I don't think that the nazgul stole any horses themselves. Most probably they send men or orcs for that. I think we must distinguish a massive theft of black horses reported before the War of the Ring from the theft of a few black Mearas. I think that most of the horses stolen from Rohan were ordinary horses: they were not meant for the nazgul, but just for men in Sauron's army. Black horses were fashionable in Mordor. Butterbeer is right that Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them. But still the horses the nazgul rode in 3018 must have been Mearas, their speed proves that. I suppose that the nazgul were lucky if they could obtain a single black mearas once in a while. Perhaps they kept a small interbreeding herd of a few mearas, and added new horses to it over the years when they could. I suppose the herd was kept neither in Morgul Vale, nor in Gorgoroth, perhaps somewhere near Nurn. Than careful breeding could provide the numbers required. Now the question of timing. It is possible that the first black Mearas were stolen from Rohan long before Sauron's return to Mordor (2951). The nazgul lived in Minas Morgul since 2002 and they needed horses to ride. I believe that each nazgul had a succession of horses during his long life, in the Second and in the Third age alike. At least it is reported that the Witch-King rode a black horse in the battle of Fornost in TA 1975. Were those previous horses mearas as well? We do not know. Possibly yes, if all the Mearas, like Shadowfax, were characterized not only by speed, but by great endurance to nazgul presence. Perhaps ordinary horses could not be trained at all. Black mearas could be obtained (bought or stolen) from Rhovanion even before Eorl met Felarof. Perhaps the Witch-King had a few in Angmar. After all, Mearas were in ME during the Second and the Third age. "Men said that Oromë must have brought their sire from West over Sea"(LOTR appendices) Last edited by Gordis : 05-15-2005 at 07:33 PM. |
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05-16-2005, 12:26 AM | #28 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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I think you are grasping at straws here. To be born is to be birthed. To breed is to produce offspring, to beget, usually on purpose and under controlled conditions. Different, but not by much. Quote:
b) how do you see "born and bred" as being different so that being bred specifically to bear the Nazgul could exclude being born in Sauron's herds in Mordor? Quote:
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I was just trying to cover all possibilities. Besides the Rohirrim deny giving Sauron horses as tribute or anything else, but that rumor had to start somewhere--perhaps Sauron simply stole them, perhaps Wormtongue arranged it secretly, perhaps.... Quote:
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05-16-2005, 12:33 AM | #29 | ||
Elf Lord
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Also, we should bear in mind that even if it very well might be not what Tolkien meant to tell and the another dimension in his book turned out quite independedly, we can't sign-off the fact that, as genius as he was, he might weave it in the story's canvas just for the heck of it. As he was writing to his son Christopher, it is not the story, which mostly exites a reader, but an untold glimpses of another stories behind it, which fuels your imagination. He wanted his story to be an inspiration for many people’s imagination, and, as we can see now, he greatly succeeded in it. Quote:
Last edited by Olmer : 05-16-2005 at 12:35 AM. |
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05-16-2005, 01:17 AM | #30 | |||||||
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HOWEVER, I invite you to go back and look at the context in which I made the comment. Pytt suggested that the WK had a psychic connection with his flying beast so that the beast could be called to the battlefield from some distance away and still be there in moments. If you have some logical or other sorts of proof to offer such a reading, by all means present it. If you haven't, well, nice speech, but I must say, kind of unnecessary, since all of us here discussing this topic are more or less speculating and discussing things beyond what Tolkien actually wrote. Quote:
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The issue of speed suggests mearas. But the question of speed could also be a simple blunder by Tolkien, or it could be explained by sorcery. I do wonder if Tolkien thought of this: one factor not pointed out yet (I don't think) is that the nine can keep up with Glorfindel's horse in Book I, barely, but they do keep up. Quote:
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05-16-2005, 01:18 AM | #31 | |||||||
Elven Warrior
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HOWEVER, I invite you to go back and look at the context in which I made the comment. Pytt suggested that the WK had a psychic connection with his flying beast so that the beast could be called to the battlefield from some distance away and still be there in moments. If you have some logical or other sorts of proof to offer such a reading, by all means present it. If you haven't, well, nice speech, but I must say, kind of unnecessary, since all of us here discussing this topic are more or less speculating and discussing things beyond what Tolkien actually wrote. Quote:
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The issue of speed suggests mearas. But the question of speed could also be a simple blunder by Tolkien, or it could be explained by sorcery. I do wonder if Tolkien thought of this: one factor not pointed out yet (I don't think) is that the nine can keep up with Glorfindel's horse in Book I, barely, but they do keep up. Quote:
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I really should be doing my chapter summary.... |
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05-16-2005, 01:20 AM | #32 | |
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Et tu Olmer??!!??!!
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05-16-2005, 11:40 AM | #33 | |||||||||
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05-16-2005, 03:58 PM | #34 |
Elf Lord
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well great GIG guys!
Touche! (... and i mean that!) ... just for starters: to be clear i never personally suggested the Naz raided black horses themselves... I STILL THINK its VERY UNCLEAR INDEED and EXTREMELY SKETCHY to make ANY assumptions that the black horses were Mearas... and i'll be prepared to argue that to the hilt unless anyone has any convincing argument other then that the Naz thrashed their horses in pitiless urgency one time when we assume Gandalf on Shadowfax did not? Gandalf may have rested, stopped at an INN, pulled up for a smoke etc: gone a different ruote, had bad weather, been suffering from diahorrea! : ANY NUMBER OF POSSIBLE CAUSES: i do not rate as historical or in any way realiable evidence what Gordis poses originally in the thread that they were Mearas because they were as fast on the basis that he posted earlier: even so as Gordis himself agrees they were rare: if so easy to breed the Kings of Horses: why then did not the Rohirrim the Horse masters with considerably MUCH more experience, history, culture, affinity, nature, nuture, love, respect, horse-based culture etc etc have Mearas to the orderof Nine at any given time? Sorry but it's rubbish: Good horses from good stock even with some Mearas blood stock in their genes, trained and nurtured in certain conditions etc , yes: Mearas To Go (on tap: NO!) OK they may beto some degree from, or long bred from percentage of Mearas stock, and Gordis is perfectly ok to posit the issue: but lets get this straight here and now: that is NO WAY EITHER A) proved or B) even begun to be uncontessted CANON I find it odd how peoples arguments on both or sides are contradicting themselves! Anyways GUYS: great fencing match! Mucho enjoying it: *sits down peacefully on the side to watch the game unfold and sips his first try of the recommended NURN 2974 (or around there)* (had a lot of other points but have forgotten them for ther mo' so shall sit it out for a while and take a breather and enjoy...) PS: check out forkbeard's chapter on the LOTR discussion: it's where the Homies are at: so its a great cross thread 'happening' potential alignment thingy! Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-16-2005 at 04:07 PM. |
05-16-2005, 06:15 PM | #35 | ||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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As for number of horses, mearas or otherwise: say he starts with 5 horses in 2951, 2 stallions, 3 mares. 3 mares produce 3 foals. In 2952, 3 mares are impregnated, 3 more foals. Repeat in 2953. 2954 the mares born in 2951 are ready to breed, and if you can steal or demand any more stallions or mares during this period, well all the better. So say of the 3, 2 were pregnant. That adds another 5 for 2954, and again in 2955. So over a five year period with an original 5 horses, one could breed them to be a herd of over 20. And that's assuming no influx of new horses by theft, by trade, purchase, or tribute. Quote:
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As for "perversion", anything put to something other than its normal use is perverted. That's what it means. The fact that these horses bore their masters when all other creatures (normal ones anyway) quailed, then some perversion of nature is at work whether one of magic, or one of training. |
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05-16-2005, 06:33 PM | #36 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Hi, Butterbeer!
Just a side note before I start to break your arguments . I am no man. I don't mean that I am a wraith, I am not yet that far gone into evilness , I am no man in the same way as Eowyn…So please use she, her etc when you refer to me. Gordis BTW has the same ending as Erendis, Artanis etc. Quote:
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Forkbeard was right to refer to the other race they had: that with Asfaloth: "The Riders behind were falling back: even their great steeds were no match in speed for the white elf-horse of Glorfindel." Of course Asphalot had to carry only a halfling, while the black horses had to carry tall armoured knights. And still they almost kept up. Were they mearas? I believe it is very likely. Mearas were rare, but not that very rare: "It was upon Felaróf that Eorl rode to the Field of Celebrant; for that horse proved as long lived as Men, and so were his descendants. These were the mearas, who would bear no one but the King of the Mark or his sons, until the time of Shadowfax." You see the Kings of Mark and their sons rode mearas. So IMHO it were possible over the years to obtain some dark ones. Shadowfax was unique, it is true "I took the best horse in his land, and I have never seen the like of him.'…And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world. The horses of the Nine cannot vie with him; tireless, swift as the flowing wind. Shadowfax they called him" Quote:
Now what say you, Butterbeer? Best, Gordis |
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05-16-2005, 06:35 PM | #37 |
Elf Lord
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[QUOTE=Forkbeard]
Operative words being CLAD in black, not were black. THe horses, like those who rode them, wore black. well i agree with that, that was one of the points i was going to make! It does not say all the horses were black: though we may, i feel, assume he liked black horses where possible mind you i think it obvious that black was the vogue colour for both Morgoth and Sauron alike and they would be valued as such no matter how great or otherwise they were. this is what we know from the Rohirrim: they took as many of the black horses as they could (note: the black horses! not Mearas specifically: not all that is black does not glitter: not all that are black is not gold! : not very good perhaps but to the point! ) |
05-16-2005, 06:56 PM | #38 | ||
Elf Lord
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Miss (or MRS?) Gordis:
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well it seems to me even stranger: gandalf rushes off as if the very wings of mordor are on his back on the fastest steed of the age with all urgency and speed being his very essence and the Naz, dilly-dallying here there and everythere on a sight-seeing trip Via tharbad etc CAN STILL DO THE SAME DISTANCE IN A VERY CLOSE TIME????????? as specified as your reasion that they must be mearas in the first instance! excuse me but something is very obviouslythen wrong here: and therefore it is proof positive we cannot take this as accurate historical evidence that the horses were close to or necessarily on a par with the mearas: i'm not saying they could not have been: just disputing the evidence given that they were! Best BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-16-2005 at 06:58 PM. |
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05-17-2005, 08:07 AM | #39 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I feel you just hate the idea that nz horses may be mearas. |
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05-17-2005, 08:19 AM | #40 | |||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Unfortunately, if we are speaking about mearas, than we must remember that they had the same lifespan as men (see the quote in my previous post), so the 3 year old mares will be hardly ready to breed. And how about foal mortality in Mordor conditions? And what if the horses after close acquaintance with the nazgul die? Or had only stillborn foals? And so on and so on - conjecture upon conjecture . Quote:
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What had the nazgul been used for? Not as errand-boys for sure. Yes, Khamul+1 or 2 were transferred to Dol Guldur. One of them was a messenger circulating between DG and Mordor. This one may have had a spare steed. The rest remained in Minas Morgul. And, yes, Sauron had time but probably he lacked the means. Quote:
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1. the horses are mearas 2.blunder by Tolkien 3. sorcery. My primary conclusion was "they were outstanding horses, possibly mearas". I don't like No.2, sorry. I believe that there must be some constant singposts of the story so I never question the entries in the Tale of Years. I think nobody does, even Olmer with his challenging theories . 3. Sorcery? Seems unlikely to me. Of course, the Witch-King was a powerful sorcerer, but hardly surpassed Gandalf. Gandalf was a maia and a magician but still he had to use physical means - a swift horse - to get from Rohan to the Shire in a great hurry. Were sorcery helpful, he could have taken any horse and made it run as fast as Shadowfax. So to me only one conclusion seems likely and I try to defend it. Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 05-17-2005 at 12:11 PM. |
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