Opinions/Theories about the Nature and State of Bomadil (Tom) - Page 2

Lizra · 06-10-2002, 11:12 PM

Well, a merry spirit, and the witch king!? Jekyll and Hyde maybe, I don't know, I don't think so

Turkey Walker's more like it

Elfhelm · 06-11-2002, 04:06 PM

My theory is that this writer wanted to make a sequel to his children's book and proposed to his editor that he include the character from a children's rhyme he had made up years before for his children. (He wrote something like this in a letter: "Do you think old Bombadil, the spirit of the Oxford countryside, would make a good character for my book?")

The Bombadil character was based on this doll one of the boys got from an elder aunt and another of the boys tried to flush down the toilet. The writer made up the rhyme to cheer up the young lad. In the rhyme, this oddly dressed doll explored some of the places this writer took his children on the weekends, like Wayland's Smithy and the surrounding forest. Scary places for children, but the singing of the doll character makes it safe.

So for his sequel, he at first was going to have the little character from the first children's story get married and have a son who inherited the tricky little ring he had found, but the darn character just couldn't bring himself to let a woman into his tidy little world. So he adopted this tike, gave him his posessions, and went back to the "last homely home". (Note, this writer had an earlier character who went to some cottage and lived with the little people and listened to their stories, which he never published, so it was a simple device to have the previous character do it instead.)

So the new character and a group of his pals have to get away from some weird dark riders who sniff the air looking for the original character's treasure. They decide to go where these Riders least expect them to go, into the realm of this children's poem from ten years before. Then the writer gets to re-use the characters and settings of the children's poem. This also buys the writer time to think up how exactly he wants the sequel to develop.

Soon, the old stories from the Cottage are beginning to merge into the plot of the new book. The Riders become the nine kings, and the neat little trick ring becomes the One Ring, and, by the time they leave the Old Forest and seek the old grey wizard at the agreed-upon meeting place, all the plot is clear in the writer's mind. It has changed from a children's book to a book for adults.

But there's one thing - the characters from the children's poem don't fit into the stories from the Cottage, which is now the real history of the world. But he doesn't mind. It was fun to write (or re-write), so he leaves them in.

The sequel becomes greater than the original, stretches over six books, published as three, and is called one of the masterpieces of the twentieth century. Over the years people point out this inconguity about the children's poem character, and the writer just says something like, "Don't you think in fantasy that some things don't have to make sense?" And every theory put forth by every fan in any letter, that he is a secret Maiar, etc, is dismissed by the writer.

And secretly, as fans continue to argue about the true nature of this being, the writer would smile and be glad that he created an enigma that would keep his books on people's minds. Because, if people think long enough and hard enough about Tom Bombadil, someday they might GET what the writer was saying with him. Just think about the phrase Goldberry says, "He just IS!" He lives in the moment. Who he WAS is irrelevant to the story.

But who he really WAS is a character from a previous unpublished piece that got to participate in an epic because the writer liked him.

That's my theory.

Comic Book Guy · 06-11-2002, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Hows that

Uneffective and wrong, as it's not Tolkien canon.

Tar-Elendil · 06-11-2002, 07:15 PM

Quote:

This means they would be occupied by their cults at the War of the Ring

thats an assumtion. he didnt cleary say if they returned towards the west in that era or not.

Comic Book Guy · 06-11-2002, 08:10 PM

Tom said

Quote:

"'When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already...'"

'here' meaning the Old Forest, not Valinor, incidently it tells that Tom Bombadil was always there.

Cirdan · 06-11-2002, 08:35 PM

If the is a "double identity" then why not Gandalf as Tom Bombadil?

They are never seen together.

Gandalf, when visiting Tom B. after the war, goes alone,; he may be going home to pick up a few things.

Gandalf enjoyed the Hobbits and spent a good deal of time with them. Maybe like Aule, he created the hobbits, and used the old forest to be near them without being discovered, so he could move about freely.

The witchking theory doesn't work as he could have easily taken the ring and walked away from the unarmed hobbits.

BeardofPants · 06-12-2002, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
If the is a "double identity" then why not Gandalf as Tom Bombadil?

'Cept for the fact that they look completely different...

Tar-Elendil · 06-12-2002, 01:22 AM

yea..but neither does the witch king and tom..
the witch king doesnt look like anything..hes invisible

Cirdan · 06-12-2002, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants

'Cept for the fact that they look completely different...

Yep, for the Maia the body is just a shell...

As for what I really think, I agree with the Tolkien being sentimental about the Tom B. character and liking the role he plays in LotR. He's an anomaly, because the author can defy his self created reality. We've been spoiled by his deep histories and backround work, so we expect that there should be a answer for everything. It is a good thing that he broke the ridged framework of his complex world once in a while.

Tar-Elendil · 06-12-2002, 01:11 PM

mebbe he did for years and years later people could discuss Tom Bombadil on the internet?

:P

***Fat middle*** · 06-12-2002, 01:14 PM

i don't want to open a new thread about Bombadill, so i'm putting here my question:

has anybody read something about the background of Tom's names such as Forn or Orald?

most names in Tolkien have meaning links with other words...

Gildor · 06-12-2002, 02:23 PM

I read in a Tolkien biography that Tolkien put
Bombadil and Treebeard into the story to please his children. They had requested Bombadil because Tolkien used to tell them stories about him and Treebeard because one of the boys thought it would be neat to have a talking tree.

He does add an air of mystery, but he seems wholesome to me, not at all like a witchking.

Maybe he is a representation of innocence and Edenic bliss.

Elfhelm · 06-12-2002, 08:27 PM

You know, Gildor. I think you have a point there. Which biography?

Gildor · 06-12-2002, 10:51 PM

I think it came out of one I ordered for my Junior High students called, Tolkien, Master Storyteller, but it could have been in a magazine article. I'll look for it. At school anytime anyone finds an article about Tolkien, Chesterton, or Lewis, they bring it to me. This year seems to have been a great one for Tolkien articles...thanks to the movie.

Finmandos · 06-13-2002, 06:52 PM

One of the best theories I've heard is that hes Tolkien. The Ring doesn't affect him ( he made it up after all), he never really takes part in the story, he commands Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wights (They're his creations)... Theres some other stuff I don't remember from our pre-movie discussions.

ringbearer · 06-14-2002, 11:52 PM

I like bmilder's theory, that Tom is Iluvitar...which is kind-of like him being Tolkien. See this thread

Gildor · 06-16-2002, 09:13 AM

I was wrong. The biography I was thinking of--JRR Tolkien, Mythmaker, doesn't discuss TB or TB--(Treebeard or Tom Bombadil)so it must have been from a magazine article. In any event, it appears that the author was off base with his/her assumptions. I checked out a book of Tolkiens letters, read it, tried to find support for the theory, and gave up. T. does say a lot about the nature of the two TBs and why he put them in, but nothing about pleasing his children. Oh well, it was a good theory. "Excuse me for posting without checking my facts," Gildor said, and looked somewhat abashed.

Aragorn_iz_cool · 06-17-2002, 09:11 PM

Tolkine said the Illuvater never appered in ME.

***Khamûl*** · 06-19-2002, 12:58 AM

"Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, who is Tom Bombadil?"

"He is," said Goldberry...

My opinions about Tom might be posted later if I feel like it.

Khadrane · 06-20-2002, 09:15 PM

I read an interesting theory about Tom representing the reader. I think you can find it at http://www.tolkien.cro.net/else/bbeier.html

I hope that works right.

06-10-2002, 11:12 PM	#21
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Well, a merry spirit, and the witch king!? Jekyll and Hyde maybe, I don't know, I don't think so Turkey Walker's more like it __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

06-11-2002, 04:06 PM	#22
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	My theory is that this writer wanted to make a sequel to his children's book and proposed to his editor that he include the character from a children's rhyme he had made up years before for his children. (He wrote something like this in a letter: "Do you think old Bombadil, the spirit of the Oxford countryside, would make a good character for my book?") The Bombadil character was based on this doll one of the boys got from an elder aunt and another of the boys tried to flush down the toilet. The writer made up the rhyme to cheer up the young lad. In the rhyme, this oddly dressed doll explored some of the places this writer took his children on the weekends, like Wayland's Smithy and the surrounding forest. Scary places for children, but the singing of the doll character makes it safe. So for his sequel, he at first was going to have the little character from the first children's story get married and have a son who inherited the tricky little ring he had found, but the darn character just couldn't bring himself to let a woman into his tidy little world. So he adopted this tike, gave him his posessions, and went back to the "last homely home". (Note, this writer had an earlier character who went to some cottage and lived with the little people and listened to their stories, which he never published, so it was a simple device to have the previous character do it instead.) So the new character and a group of his pals have to get away from some weird dark riders who sniff the air looking for the original character's treasure. They decide to go where these Riders least expect them to go, into the realm of this children's poem from ten years before. Then the writer gets to re-use the characters and settings of the children's poem. This also *buys the writer time* to think up how exactly he wants the sequel to develop. Soon, the old stories from the Cottage are beginning to merge into the plot of the new book. The Riders become the nine kings, and the neat little trick ring becomes the One Ring, and, by the time they leave the Old Forest and seek the old grey wizard at the agreed-upon meeting place, all the plot is clear in the writer's mind. It has changed from a children's book to a book for adults. But there's one thing - the characters from the children's poem don't fit into the stories from the Cottage, which is now the real history of the world. But he doesn't mind. It was fun to write (or re-write), so he leaves them in. The sequel becomes greater than the original, stretches over six books, published as three, and is called one of the masterpieces of the twentieth century. Over the years people point out this inconguity about the children's poem character, and the writer just says something like, "Don't you think in fantasy that some things don't have to make sense?" And every theory put forth by every fan in any letter, that he is a secret Maiar, etc, is dismissed by the writer. And secretly, as fans continue to argue about the true nature of this being, the writer would smile and be glad that he created an enigma that would keep his books on people's minds. Because, *if people think long enough and hard enough about Tom Bombadil, someday they might GET what the writer was saying with him. Just think about the phrase Goldberry says, "He just IS!" He lives in the moment. Who he WAS is irrelevant to the story. But who he really WAS is a character from a previous unpublished piece that got to participate in an epic because the writer liked him.* That's my theory. __________________ cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 06-11-2002 at 04:21 PM.

06-11-2002, 08:35 PM	#26
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	If the is a "double identity" then why not Gandalf as Tom Bombadil? They are never seen together. Gandalf, when visiting Tom B. after the war, goes alone,; he may be going home to pick up a few things. Gandalf enjoyed the Hobbits and spent a good deal of time with them. Maybe like Aule, he created the hobbits, and used the old forest to be near them without being discovered, so he could move about freely. The witchking theory doesn't work as he could have easily taken the ring and walked away from the unarmed hobbits. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

06-12-2002, 01:22 AM	#28
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	yea..but neither does the witch king and tom.. the witch king doesnt look like anything..hes invisible __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-12-2002, 01:11 PM	#30
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	mebbe he did for years and years later people could discuss Tom Bombadil on the internet? :P __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-12-2002, 01:14 PM	#31
*Fat middle* Mootis per forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Spain Posts: 61,439	i don't want to open a new thread about Bombadill, so i'm putting here my question: has anybody read something about the background of Tom's names such as Forn or Orald? most names in Tolkien have meaning links with other words... __________________ Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.

06-12-2002, 02:23 PM	#32
Gildor Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural America Posts: 37	I read in a Tolkien biography that Tolkien put Bombadil and Treebeard into the story to please his children. They had requested Bombadil because Tolkien used to tell them stories about him and Treebeard because one of the boys thought it would be neat to have a talking tree. He does add an air of mystery, but he seems wholesome to me, not at all like a witchking. Maybe he is a representation of innocence and Edenic bliss. __________________ Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.

06-12-2002, 08:27 PM	#33
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	You know, Gildor. I think you have a point there. Which biography? __________________ cya

06-12-2002, 10:51 PM	#34
Gildor Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural America Posts: 37	I think it came out of one I ordered for my Junior High students called, Tolkien, Master Storyteller, but it could have been in a magazine article. I'll look for it. At school anytime anyone finds an article about Tolkien, Chesterton, or Lewis, they bring it to me. This year seems to have been a great one for Tolkien articles...thanks to the movie. __________________ Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.

06-13-2002, 06:52 PM	#35
Finmandos Sapling Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 9	One of the best theories I've heard is that hes Tolkien. The Ring doesn't affect him ( he made it up after all), he never really takes part in the story, he commands Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wights (They're his creations)... Theres some other stuff I don't remember from our pre-movie discussions.

06-14-2002, 11:52 PM	#36
ringbearer Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: St. Louis, Mo. USA Posts: 561	I like bmilder's theory, that Tom is Iluvitar...which is kind-of like him being Tolkien. See this thread __________________ Ringbearer Hide Witch, hide! The Good Folks come to burn thee! Their keen enjoyment hid behind A Gothic mask of duty! Last edited by ringbearer : 06-14-2002 at 11:53 PM.

06-16-2002, 09:13 AM	#37
Gildor Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural America Posts: 37	Biography I was wrong. The biography I was thinking of--JRR Tolkien, Mythmaker, doesn't discuss TB or TB--(Treebeard or Tom Bombadil)so it must have been from a magazine article. In any event, it appears that the author was off base with his/her assumptions. I checked out a book of Tolkiens letters, read it, tried to find support for the theory, and gave up. T. does say a lot about the nature of the two TBs and why he put them in, but nothing about pleasing his children. Oh well, it was a good theory. "Excuse me for posting without checking my facts," Gildor said, and looked somewhat abashed. __________________ Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.

06-17-2002, 09:11 PM	#38
Aragorn_iz_cool Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 119	Tolkine said the Illuvater never appered in ME.

06-19-2002, 12:58 AM	#39
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	"Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, who is Tom Bombadil?" "He is," said Goldberry... My opinions about Tom might be posted later if I feel like it. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

06-20-2002, 09:15 PM	#40
Khadrane Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Middle Earth (I wish) Posts: 670	I read an interesting theory about Tom representing the reader. I think you can find it at http://www.tolkien.cro.net/else/bbeier.html I hope that works right. __________________ Few know whither their road will take them till they come to its end. -Legolas FRODO LIVES! ABORTION IS HOMICIDE

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
REAL debate thread for RELIGION	Ruinel	General Messages	1439	04-01-2005 02:47 PM
The Anti-theist Thread	afro-elf	General Messages	1123	05-09-2002 03:46 PM
Final Statements: The Nature of Truth	Elysha	General Messages	24	02-05-2001 12:13 AM