Arwen at Helm's Deep.......

[Lizra]

Now I want to see the original version, with warrior Arwen!

[Draken]

Hey you know me. The more Arwen scenes the better.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by squinteyedsoutherner
Does anyone know if the elves that were leaving Rivendell with the lanterns were originally the elves that arrive at Helm's deep? When Arwen looks back at Elrond in that scene Elrond looks angry, not relieved that his daughter is leaving. Both groups are wearing hoods of some dark colour. That would also explain why Haldir is added via special effects to the arriving group of elves at the Hornburg, although he was in that battle in "real footage", was perhaps Arwen the original lead elf? Were the lanterns that were held by those elves in Rivendell originally something else, like banners, but were changed (with fx) when the scenes were reworked? was the scene of the elves leaving Rivendell meant to be the response to Galadriels speech? Why else would Galadriel be trying to persuade Elrond?


Or am I just smokin' too much?

Just smokin' too much

I actually think those Elves leaving Rivendell were those leaving for the Grey Havens, which would make the laterns, the pace of their walk, and the song they were signing understandable. I didn't quite understand Elrond's mean look on his face, except I thought about it and I think it was because he foresaw that Arwen was leaving Rivendell for Lothlorien, but she was just appeasing her father to make it appear that she was going to the Havens....

[azalea]

Well, I hope he doesn't make it as if she's LIED to her father! That would make it even more like the "wayward teen" portrayal!

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by azalea
Well, I hope he doesn't make it as if she's LIED to her father! That would make it even more like the "wayward teen" portrayal!

Isn't Arwen a little old to be considered a wayward teen?

But deceiving her father is exactly what Arwen is fixing to do. ROTK will open with her having the sword-that-was-broken reforged and then secretly taking it with her when she leaves Rivendell for the Grey Havens...via Rohan.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Isn't Arwen a little old to be considered a wayward teen?

Yes, that's my point.

And your RotK scenario sounds bad for exactly that reason. Why would she need to deceive him? She's a grown elf woman who is free to do what she wants! That is why I have said in other posts that if it isn't this way, then it should be: the viewer is supposed to think that group of elves is leaving for the Havens, but is actually going to Gondor. But from what you're saying, she perhaps will show up in Rohan (does this mean she was at Helm's Deep after all?) -- is this before they all go to Isengard? Or just before the Paths of the Dead? I'm not one of those that barks at each minor change from the books, but character changes irk me. Arwen is not the "deceive her father" type. That would weaken her character, IMO, and I hope it isn't done that way. If it is, so be it, but I don't have to like it.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by azalea
I'm not one of those that barks at each minor change from the books, but character changes irk me. Arwen is not the "deceive her father" type. That would weaken her character, IMO, and I hope it isn't done that way.

Arwen?...what character change?

The fact of the matter is none of us can really say with authority what Tolkien's Arwen was like. The Arwen parts of LOTR (including the appendix) are open to different equally-valid interpretations. Just because Jackson didn't give you YOUR personal perception of Arwen, doesn't mean that his Arwen is any less true to Tolkien's vision than yours.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

PJ's Arwen is a silly, stupid girl half of the time, and a confident, wise warrior princess the other half. The second half, I suppose MIGHT fit Tolkien's vision, though she seems like a heck of a lot more of a behind-the-scenes character. Anyway, I HIGHLY doubt she was schizophrenic in Tolkien's vision.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
PJ's Arwen is a silly, stupid girl half of the time...I HIGHLY doubt she was schizophrenic in Tolkien's vision.

Believe what you will, my point is that you have absolutely nothing to base your opinion on. If people are going to complain about how PJ has deviated inappropriately from the books, don't give me your feelings or serious doubts, give me specific examples from the book.

I think we've come up with yet another new fan category, The "I'm sure I know what Tolkien WOULD have said" Purist.

[Coney]

I think we've come up with yet another new fan category, The "I'm sure I know what Tolkien WOULD have said" Purist.

Is P Jackson going to be the first to be labelled with this new title?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yeah, right, like he cares. He just wants money!

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Does anyone know why Arwen was removed? Is the director reacting to public opinion? Is there another explanation?

[Lizra]

[i]Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
PJ's Arwen is a silly, stupid girl half of the time,

Why do you say that? Silly, stupid girl...?????? Explain please!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

She's a blubbering teenager, for Yavanna's sake! She is portrayed as a rather silly girl in TTT, who has a boyfriend that Daddy doesn't like. Also, when Elrond told her that when Aragorn died, she would wander through Middle-Earth alone forever, she certainly seemed to be buying it (Though I'm pretty sure it was stated that she would lose her immortality). She really struck as a lovestruck teenager who didn't know what she was getting herself into.

[Lizra]

Hmmm, I didn't see it that way at all. She was deeply in love with Aragorn, (hoo boy! ) yet she was an elf! This would be a horrible "between a rock and a hard place" situation, I would cry too!

Her father was just being a father, but of course this only made an impossible decision more heart rendering. If she had not cried and been emotional, it would have been weird! (IMO) I do not think of elves as emotionless machines.....I do not see the teenager part, She wasn't wearing her hair in a pony tail, listening to irritating music, or rolling her eyes alot!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hehe, that's true about the teenager part. But she is c. 3000 years old, if I am correct; surely she is old enough to pick her own boyfriend?

Elves aren't emotionless, but I just don't see Elves acting like that.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Arwen?...what character change?

The fact of the matter is none of us can really say with authority what Tolkien's Arwen was like.

Well, I would hope that any descendent of Luthien (and therefore, Melian) WOULDN'T behave like a spoiled brat.

[azalea]

Just to make it clear what I was talking about for anyone who might have misunderstood me:
My original post was in response to Dunadain's prediction that Arwen was telling her father she was going to the Havens, but was instead going to...somewhere else, it doesn't matter where. My reaction was that I hope that is not how it plays out in RotK (which we don't know about since it hasn't come out!) because showing Arwen Undomiel, Evenstar of her people, lying to Elrond about going to the Havens and instead going somewhere else mars her character in two major ways. First, it would make her a liar, which is not something that anyone in the world would think she'd be. Secondly, it would undermine her autonomy as a mature elf woman. In other words, by having her lie it would show the audience that she is not a strong, independent adult who is free to make her own decisions ("It is mine to give to whom I wish," remember?). Arwen wouldn't deceive Elrond, and everyone knows it. PJ has set her up that way in FotR and in the flashback scenes in TTT. By going w/ the "deception" scenario, he'd be going against his own characterization of her. A character change, if you will. He'd of course also be changing her character from the book, which is where PJ got her character from: a beautiful elf woman in a strong leadership position, beloved by all who knew her. Characterization as I was using it had nothing to do w/ scene changes, we all know about those, and I wasn't referring to anything like that. If I were to do that, I would be complaining about the whole scene between her and Elrond, but I'm not. I'm simply saying that I hope that Dunedain's prediction does not happen.
I hope this clears it up for everybody, because I know you wanted to know all this in great detail, didn't you?

[LuthienTinuviel]

haha lizra, i think that females are the only ones who would understand the teary scene of arwen! (well unless your BB.. hmm wait a minute... )

but anyways.. i thought of the scene as something like arwen has always had the comfort of knowing that she will live forever, having that invincible feeling if you will, so to realise that she will become mortal (and as my dear friend, gwaimir pointed out in another thread) and since mortals don't know what becomes of them when they die, she suddenly realises that she doesn't have that comfort anymore, even if she knew that she would die, she didn't really know...

the only way i can think of explaining this is, checking the box on the back of your driver's liscense saying that your an organ donor. it forces you to think about your death and what will become of you, even though everyone knows that they will die someday it isn't something that you really know. and it's scary, death is terrifying, horrible and sad. ive had two friends die this year and another who is alive might not make it, so pardon me if i sound morbid at all.

it is a very scary moment when you have to think of your own death, so i guess that's why i really like the scenes with her and elrond.
BTW elrond always looks angry cause of his lumpy head.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
as my dear friend, gwaimir pointed out

Awwwww, I have a friend!