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06-27-2006, 10:19 PM | #21 | |
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06-27-2006, 10:30 PM | #22 | |
Elven Warrior
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06-29-2006, 04:19 PM | #23 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks for your excellent post, Alcuin.
It so happened that I posted my analysis of the Weathertop episode on another forum as well, and got another interesting reply from Alcuin, pointing out the importance of destruction of the Barrow-Wight. I think I shall post my reply here as well, to share it with the Mooters. Quote:
Indeed, the nazgul likely learned about the demise of the Wight even before they saw the blade. According to the notes on the movements of the Black riders in HOME VII "The Treason of Isengard", the Riders, who attacked Crickhollow while hobbits were at Bree (the night after the destruction of the wight), returned to the Witch-King at Andrath to report, thus likely passing right through the fields of barrows. It is strange if they hadn't heard the recent news from the Wight's bereaved colleagues . So likely, at Andrath, the Witch-King learned from his underlings not only about their failure at Crickhollow and at Bree, but also that a Wight was destroyed and some perilous blades had gone missing. That could explain the Witch-Kings great wrath upon hearing the reports even better. Whom could the nazgul suspect? Tom (if they ever heard of him), Gandalf (I don't think they could have been quite sure of the wizard's whereabouts), some Elves (but the appearance of, especially, Calaquendi Elves, at the Barrows at the crucial moment would have been too great a coincidence) or the hobbit with the Ring. Did the Witch-King know (about) Tom? There was heavy fighting around Tyrn Gorthad and the old Forest back in TA 1409. Quote:
Now, in September 3018, the Witch-King himself visited Tom's lands and not only had "a cup of tea " with the Wights, but also weaved some spells to arouse all evil things in the Old Forest (like Old Man Willow). It doesn't seem that the WK was hampered by Tom in any way, while trespassing. So, I believe, the WK didn't know about Tom. I don't think the nazgul suspected the hobbits of killing the Wight before they saw the blade in Frodo's hand. Most likely they suspected Gandalf. They could have become quite sure when they saw the wizard at Weathertop. Otherwise, the WK would have been vary of the hobbits from the start - he would not have left 2 of the 5 nazgul standing idle at the lip of the dell... But once the nazgul saw the blade, the realization that it was the Ringbearer who destroyed the Wight and plundered the Barrow hit them. They must have realized that, wielding the Ring, even a hobbit could possibly order a wight to depart. But that meant that the hobbit had much more willpower that the nazgul had previously thought. If the hobbit successfully wielded the Ring against the Wight, then the hobbit COULD try to use the Ring against the nazgul themselves ( like the situation described in the letter 246 ) - a very difficult and unpleasant situation for the nazgul. Quote:
Perhaps that was part of the reason why the Witch-King attacked immediately - nor to leave Frodo time to claim the Ring for his own and to start issuing orders to the Ringwraiths? |
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06-29-2006, 06:39 PM | #24 |
Elven Warrior
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I have to admit, after you consider the Nazguls’ possible suspicions concerning the blades and the wight, the pieces start to fall into place. I guess there is a good answer to this question after all. Very well done Gordis and Alcuin.
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06-29-2006, 06:46 PM | #25 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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wow *left speechless with mouth hanging open*.
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06-29-2006, 07:43 PM | #26 |
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... ENTER ... the Dentist ...
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06-30-2006, 12:16 PM | #27 | ||
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06-30-2006, 02:20 PM | #28 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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I agree because if someone is immortal, they have many names throughout the age, and you live near the m for hundreds of years, how can you not know them?
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06-30-2006, 02:35 PM | #29 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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We can't be sure about that of course. Still let us consider the possibility that the Witch-King HAD heard of some strange being living in the Old Forest. He had his own agents nearby - the Wights - so they might have reported his existence. But Tom has never molested a wight before, it seems - he let them live on his lands and harass the trespassers (remember terrible stories about the Wights that were told even in the Shire?). So, most probably, the WK assumed that Orald (or Forn or Tom or what-is-his-name-again?) had no power over the Wights. So, when a wight was suddenly destroyed, the WK suspected not Tom, their neutral neighbour, but someone else - Gandalf the Maia or Baggins the Ringbearer. |
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06-30-2006, 03:32 PM | #30 | |||
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The fact that no evil can cross Tom's house must have been known for a long time - along with his power over the wood (I doubt Goldberrry calls him Master for nothing). He is probably the oldest being, and that most likely imply in itself a good deal of magic power. On the other hand, hobbits, like all Men, lack any magical powers: Quote:
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07-01-2006, 10:41 AM | #31 | |||
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Kind of, sort of related question: Apparently the art of making “anti-Nazgul” blades was lost or abandoned. Could this be due to the (possibly) well known prophesy about the Witch King’s defeat? If a Man couldn’t kill him, and the swords are made for Men, why continue to make the swords? |
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07-01-2006, 12:22 PM | #32 | ||||
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07-01-2006, 04:08 PM | #33 | ||||||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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He might have known of Tom, but he might not as well. Quote:
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We know for certain that 1. Tom didn't prevent the destruction of Cardolani warriors and people of Tyrn Gorthad by Angmarians back in 1409. 2. He let the Barrow Wights live on his territory and molest the passers-by for 1500 years. If they are not "Evil" then I don't know who is. 3. He let the Witch King visit the Barrow downs and arouse all the Wights AND all the Evil beings in the Old Forest. So, where is this famous control? I don't say he had no magic power but he hardly used it, it seems. Too busy singing and dancing. Quote:
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I don't think the other Wights travelled around much - one had to go to the Barrows to talk to them. They were inhabiting decaying corpses, after all - what if one looses a head or an arm while walking around? Much easier to suppose that a Wight have stopped a Nazgul travelling to Andrath via the Barrow Downs and sent word to the WK with him. And also: did the other Wights know who sent away their colleague? Quote:
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IF he wanted to rid the Barrows of the Wights, he could have done it many times over, couldn't he? He had 1500 years for the job, and certainly enough power. Quote:
As for "pathetic show" I strongly disagree. The pathetic show was in the movie. Compare the two scenes, and you will see that Frodo was far from pathetic in the book. He was the only one of the hobbits to offer resistance. He put on the Ring (an "object of terror" for all the nazgul), he cried to Elbereth and he attacked first and almost killed the Witch-King. If he had touched his leg, and not only his cloak, the WK would have been dead. "Pathetic", indeed . Quote:
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But the know-how came from Numenor, here you are right. The Mouth of Sauron (or his Master) recognised the sword design and called it "the blade of the Downfallen West". Perhaps such swords were used against the nazgul back in the Second Age, and during the battles of the Last Alliance. Quote:
BUT, I think the know-how of the sword making was lost much earlier, with the end of Cardolan. Perhaps there was a unique "school" of craftsmen in Tyrn Gorthad, and all of them were killed in the 1409 war, or , more likely, they died during the Plague of 1636. " It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." I believe, the Witch-King sent the Wights to guard the ONLY remaining blades. What was the point, if such blades were being constantly produced in Arthedain? No, likely the secret was lost. There is no mention of such blades being used in the last Angmar War of 1974-75. And HAD there been such blades at the battle of Fornost, where Gondoreans fought alongside Arnoreans, don't you think that Earnur would have imported the blades and the secret of their making into Gondor? They have been attacked by the Witch-King only 27 years after the battle of Fornost and had him and the other nazgul as their close neighbors, right across the river , ever since. IF Earnur knew of the blades, the plant for their mass-production would have been installed in Minas-Tirith! Last edited by Gordis : 07-01-2006 at 04:12 PM. |
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07-01-2006, 04:59 PM | #34 | |||||||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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Moreover, considering your previous statement: Quote:
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Last edited by Landroval : 07-01-2006 at 05:21 PM. |
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07-01-2006, 08:05 PM | #35 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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Regarding the question of communications between the Witch King and the evil forces in the area: Quote:
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07-02-2006, 02:28 AM | #36 | ||
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07-02-2006, 08:44 AM | #37 | ||||||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Hmm, Landroval, this time I disagree with most of what you say.
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I would say, the Wights were pretty efficient. Sure there were some Maiar and High Elves (and Tom) who COULD rob the graves, but were they likely to? And, anyway, the Witch-King had no power to guard anything from a Maia or someone like Glorfindel. As protection against humans, the Wights were perfect. I think that was one of the reasons why Tom left the Wights be. He hardly wanted the burials of the Edain despoiled. If he had sent the Wights away, he would have had to guard the Barrows himself - and he had other things to do, like singing and talking and collecting lilies for Goldberry, a busy man that he was. 1500 years is a pretty LONG time for men, long even for the immortals. Do we know much about year 506 AD? I am almost sure that Aragorn and the Rangers didn't know about the existence of such swords in the Barrows. Perhaps they heard legends about some fabulous swords of old, but most likely not. They were descendants of the Arthedain line, not of that of Cardolan. Did Gandalf know about the swords lying in the Barrows? Probably not. Even Bombadil probably has discovered the swords ONLY at the moment he took them out of the Barrow. Think about it: he knew the hobbits were hunted by Nazgul, he knew they carried the Ring. But he made no move to go fetch the swords for them in the Barrows. If they were NOT entrapped by the Wights, they would have never got the Barrow-Blades. Gondor was fighting against Minas Morgul for centuries. IF Bombadil told Gandalf that some very handy swords were kept in the Barrows, Gadalf would have contrived to fetch some for Gondoreans, I think. The swords are yet another thing, like the Ring, like the Palantiri, almost forgotten by everybody or believed to be a vague legend. Note in the LOTR the Wise are not all-knowing, they forget things, or they don't think of their importance in time (the Ring and the Palantiri). Now, could EVERYONE see the BD swords for what they were immediately? I think NOT. They fell under the category of the "blades of Westernesse" (see ref. from Path Galen and reference by the Mouth of Sauron) and for those who knew more of the lore (Denethor), there were some indications that they were "Made in Arnor". There were some runes on them, that indicated that they were wrought with spells. There was also a general "bad feeling" the blades produced in all evil beings (like orcs, who dropped them at Part Galen). But could Aragorn or Denethor see that it was a specific anti-nazgul weapon? I think NOT. Tom could, but he was an exception. And the quote about Aragorn: Quote:
The only one who knew all about the blades, it seems, was the Witch-King himself. He must have seen such blades before and had hardly forgotten them. He didn't need to examine the blade: for him who lived in the Spirit-World, the blade burned red like a beacon, the same way as the Morgul knife glowed with a pale light: Quote:
Aragorn, as you know, wore Narsil with him, even broken. I guess, this blade could also qualify as the "bane of Mordor" , but the quote about Barrow-Down swords : Quote:
I think, the advantage of the spell on the Barrow-Downs sword was its specificity. Note the case of the Shelob's nets: the BD sword failed to cut it, while Sting did. The BD swords were not particularly good against anything but nazgul. Likely, the spell was directed against only one person : the Witch-King of Angmar, not some "general" spell against evil things. It is even debatable, if it was as efficient against the other nazgul, I think yes, but we can't be sure. It seems it also was very unpleasant for the orcs, etc.., but its MAIN target was undoubtedly the Witch-King. And exactly SUCH a blade in the hand of a "no-Man" later proved his undoing. Quote:
Note that Gandalf said (to Legolas) that the nazgul could not be killed with arrows. Why? Because they could be affected ONLY by the blades, that COULD reach them in the World of Shadows where they lived. BD swords were such, likely Glamdring and Narsil were such also, but the BD sword, being MORE specific, was the best. Yes I repeat, Frodo ALMOST killed the Witch-King, or, at least, almost wounded him critically. Proof? Here: Quote:
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This quote is another indication that Aragorn didn't know of the BD blade properties. If he did, he would have commented in a different way ("The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for the Witch-King didn't fall down"). It could have been cheering to the hobbits to know they had got swords really dangerous for the nazgul. But Aragorn said nothing - he didn't know it. Last edited by Gordis : 07-02-2006 at 08:46 AM. |
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07-02-2006, 11:11 AM | #38 | |||||||||
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07-02-2006, 01:22 PM | #39 | |||||||||||
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And with the Necromancer in Mirkwood and the Witch-King in Carn-Dum the center of evil was HARDLY in Mordor, foundations or not. The Cardolani guys who made the blade certainly believed it was in Carn-Dum. Quote:
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Aided? Without Merry AND his sword, Eowyn would have been beaten into pulp on the spot. But the songs of the Mark of course put her forward... Quote:
[quote=Landroval] It dealt a bitter wound and it made the w-k crie in bitter pain; so what? No amount of magic can make the body invulnerable, as even Melkor feared damage to his body, and even he was executed. [/quoteIt also made the WK bend his shoulders, probably standing on all fours, and wait paralyzed while Merry called to Eowyn , while Eowyn struggled up and prepared to strike. As for Morgoth, sorry, but he was executed by the Valar. Quote:
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07-02-2006, 02:04 PM | #40 | |||||||||
Elven Warrior
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You probably misunderstood me; I was reffering to his cry of Elbereth. Quote:
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"But the know-how came from Numenor, here you are right. The Mouth of Sauron (or his Master) recognised the sword design and called it "the blade of the Downfallen West"." Quote:
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