01-24-2005, 02:56 PM | #21 |
the Shrike
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SGH is, I believe, right. The two trees waxed and waned according to the time-span of the sun & moon ... which WAS their direct 'descendent', so-to-speak.
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01-24-2005, 03:41 PM | #22 |
Tolkien-aholic
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yeah, I have this chart of the exact amounts of time of the waxing and waneing, if I find it I'll post it up
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01-24-2005, 05:48 PM | #23 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
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uhh... you all know that time is relative right?
The question is not whether 5 seconds on a hot stove is longer than 5 seconds kissing a pretty girl... It's whether 5 seconds on a hot stove is longer for an elf or a man... or whether 100 years in jail is longer for an elf than a man... Time is relative according to the observer. Since elves observe more time (total) than men, the extreme boundries will be compressed, but the present, the nearest observed events, will be about the same.... (think of time as an X axis, and lifespan as a y axis, put a reverse bell curve on it...) So 5 seconds, a day, a week, is probably perceived about the same. But years, decades, millenia... those are compressed, and experienced differently. Just how differently is a matter of speculation...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-24-2005, 08:20 PM | #24 |
Honourary Elitist Inklette
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: between the mountains and the sea
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That bellcurve theory sounds pretty good. I'm gonna go think about it for a while...
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01-25-2005, 03:24 PM | #25 | ||
avocatus diaboli
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Himring
Posts: 1,582
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I agree with Blackheart here too.
Quote:
"In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by." Quote:
I commented on Valinor earlier because I remembered reading something about the lifespans of other creatures in Valinor being longer (does someone know what I'm talking about, it's been a while...), which was part of the reason Men could not live there...
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01-25-2005, 04:12 PM | #26 |
Elf Lord
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Well.. if you think about it, a man living in valinor would expereince the present just the same as he always did.
But if somehow his perception of time were changed (remember that bell curve) then it would seem to him that indeed his end came on swiftly... because he would have aquired an elvish perception of time. Just the thing for a ring bearer weary of life....
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-25-2005, 08:28 PM | #27 |
avocatus diaboli
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Location: Himring
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Yes. I personally do not see how one can feel anything but short-lived when everything around one remains relatively unchanged... And that probably works the opposite way as well, with the Eldar in ME. It all is perception, and like you've said before, Blackheart, that perception changes with the circumstances...
It kind of reminds me what SGH said earlier: "I don't think that the Elves even considered the passage of time until they met Men and especially when Men died. [...] So, the notice and effects of time came with Men to the Elves maybe."
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
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01-26-2005, 02:50 AM | #28 |
Elf Lord
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Possibly. The "waning" of the elves starts when men awaken... But by then it's the second age... The elves are no longer "young"... not as a race. The swift days of the sun may have also contributed to the elves' sense of world weariness...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
01-30-2005, 02:20 AM | #29 |
Elf Lord
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I think that Elves and humans probably experience the present pretty much in the same way. An hour or two probably feels equally long to each. But the past and the future would be different. Ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years in the past or the future would seem much closer to an Elf than to a human.
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"...but I love not the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor." "'I would,' said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many. And many indeed saw them and the light that shone about them as they came down from the walls and went hand in hand to the Houses of Healing." |
02-03-2005, 06:29 PM | #30 | |
Sapling
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Quote:
Holbytla |
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02-04-2005, 02:39 AM | #31 | |
avocatus diaboli
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Quote:
If one holds the belief that there really is no present (as I believe I do)... that there is simply past and future, and the point where they meet... then I suppose that perception of time would depend on how you see the past and the future... I wonder... But it's getting too late now and I'll have to think on this further.
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
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02-04-2005, 08:21 PM | #32 |
Elf Lord
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I think I worded what I said wrong. I didn't percisely mean the present but more the near past and future -- within a day, or at most a week.
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"...but I love not the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor." "'I would,' said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many. And many indeed saw them and the light that shone about them as they came down from the walls and went hand in hand to the Houses of Healing." |
02-04-2005, 08:34 PM | #33 | |
The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles
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Quote:
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02-05-2005, 01:09 AM | #34 |
Elf Lord
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There is a present, but it's only an instant long at a time. But sometimes you have to consider a longer span of time "the present" relative to other times, hundreds or thousands of years early or later... which is what I meant.
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"...but I love not the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Numenor." "'I would,' said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many. And many indeed saw them and the light that shone about them as they came down from the walls and went hand in hand to the Houses of Healing." |
02-05-2005, 02:01 AM | #35 | |
avocatus diaboli
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Quote:
Ethuiliel, I have to ask you, though, what exactly is an instant? It can't be the same as a second, because by the time you reach the second quarter of a second, the first is in the past and the rest is still in the future. And you could break it up even further. Infinitesimally. So... what exactly is time?
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
Neil Gaiman |
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02-11-2005, 05:53 PM | #36 |
Elf Lord
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Location: Darkness
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Time is the wrapper around the candy of the universe...
Don't bother to try and understand it or I'll explain it to you....
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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