Faith and Fantasy

[Melko Belcha]

Hers is a couple of quotes from Letters for those who have not read it.
Letter #142

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world.

Letter #165

It is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorial intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political. The only criticism that annoyed me was that it 'contained no religion' (and 'no Women", but that does not matter, and is not true anyway). It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted. It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Silmarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Of course it wasn't, it was like 5000 B. C.!

[azalea]

OK, now I'm curious about something from that last letter: It says the fact that there are no overt religious practices will be explained in the Silm, etc., when published. Where is the explanation? I'm not saying it's not there, I think it's just my density. Could someone shed light on it for me? I didn't notice any explanation in the Silm. about why no one in LotR "worships" Eru in that sense of the word.
(It doesn't bother me that there isn't any overt religion, I'm just curious about the explanation.)

[Melko Belcha]

Letter #165 was written in June or July of 1955, when he had just got back to work on the Sil.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I would guess that he intended to include it. But I believe it is explained in one of the Letters, tho' I can't dig it up right now, I'll see if I can later.

[Fingolfinrox]

Tolkien does have lots of Christian/Catholic (he was a Catholic) morals in them, but you don't need to understand them to read the book. It can be enjoyed just for the sake of a great story. That's what really separates it from books that are allegories, and beat the moral over your head, like the Narnia series by Tolkiens friend.

[Elfhelm]

I see they are still proselytizing here. yawn!

[BeardofPants]

Oh good. Gives me a chance to clip my toenails.

[Anglorfin]

Maybe what Tolkien was implying was simply that he sees religious rituals and practices as a way to remember the benefactors. But in the case of the earlier years of the Silm why would anybody need to "remember" their benefactors (Valar or Maiar and Eru) if they were usually so close or present at least in memory.

To my knowledge I think it was only the Númenóreans who had any particular religious ritual.

[Elfhelm]

Here's an article that I feel is well-written. It takes a different approach to the subject.

http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/lord_o...turn_essay.htm

And if you are curious about pre-monotheistic Hebrew mythology, try this one:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze...anite-faq.html

If you're really brave, you can read up on Kaballah.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...tid=1&letter=C

And here is, in my opinion, some great material on angels. Angels happen to appear a lot in the Bible, and some feel they are adopted from Hebrew mythology.

http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/archangels/info.html

Edit: I should have put a link to the Book of Enoch here:

http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm

I still believe the original urge was to create a pre-Christian mythology for England, not an ur-mythology, not a christianized angelic heirarchy, but the myths and legends that might have existed before the church defeated the bards and supressed their stories.

In my opinion these links debunk the other theories, rather than support them.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Fingolfinrox
Tolkien does have lots of Christian/Catholic (he was a Catholic) morals in them, but you don't need to understand them to read the book. It can be enjoyed just for the sake of a great story. That's what really separates it from books that are allegories, and beat the moral over your head, like the Narnia series by Tolkiens friend.

I definitely agree with that. I didn't even know it was a Christian book when I first read it.

Elfhelm, I'm sorry if you consider anything related to Christianity to be proselytisation.

[Elfhelm]

That's one of those left-handed apologies, like, I'm sorry that you're stupid. Yeah right.

There's little "Christian" about LotR. Does anyone turn the other cheek? Ever? Does anyone lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13)? Maybe Boromir... hmph.

Let me add... When is the clear straightforward christian message of Mattew 25:31-40 exemplified in LotR? I don't see it.

The U.S.A. and Canada similarly have no "myths" per se. And there are people, like JRRT, who want to make them. Longfellow's Song of Hiawatha is an example of the same urge. Just because Tolkien in one letter late in life called it esentially Catholic doesn't mean it is. Who Tolkien was when he wrote Beren and Luthien in the trenches, and who he was when he told the tale of Tom Bombadil to his sons and worked out the myths in the Cottage of Lost Play - in which, mind you, the question is asked if the Valar are gods and the answer is given defintely "yes" - was a different man from the writer of those letters.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Okay, I doubt you're going to believe me, after all I am a follower of Evil, er, Christianity, but I sincerely do wish and am sorry that you think that anything having to do with Christianity is proselytisation. As hard as it may be for you to believe, we actually believe that it is the truth, and when we do so, Christianity is a part of us. That's the way it is. And I'm NOT sorry for that.

About that part: There is no "Christ-figure" in Tolkien. Tolkien said that the incarnation of God was a matter which he felt was too great for him to write of. Also, there is the fact that it is set in our world, and Christ came to our world 2000 years ago, according to Christianity. The Lord of the Rings is set in a pre-Christian era.

Sam did, on those ocassions when Frodo went berserk on him.

Pity and mercy, and self-sacrifice, and bearing one's cross, and so many other things are an integral part of Tolkien's work, and of Christianity.

Of course, no one says that it is an allegory, or overtly Christian. But the tales of Tolkien's works, First Age, Second Age, and Third Age have profoundly deep Christian elements in them; fundamental, rather than overt.

Of course, there's also the fact that the man who wrote said so. But if you have determined to know more of Tolkien's intent, purpose, and work than Tolkien himself, little can be done to persuade you otherwise.

[Elfhelm]

I have no idea why Tolkien said that, but I do know that it does not gel with his other writings. In the early versions he says they are gods. Then he backed off that stance. But the writing was already done, the cosmology already completed. Which is the true model, the one before and during the writing, or the one he claims in a letter many years later?

And I specifically ask you to show me people feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc., which Jesus very clearly states are the core values he wants you and me to have.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The impression I always got was that Tolkien referred to them as gods to avoid confusion. He also said that they were gods in one sense, I think "imaginatively" or maybe "creatively", but that they were not "theologically".

Anywho, I've always felt the last words of Tolkien on a matter to be the most important.

[Elfhelm]

Sorry, but I do not accept that they are Christian, or specifically Catholic Christian. I have studied Catholicism as well as Judaism and Gnosticism, and I have studied world mythology for many years. Tolkien's cosmology is Nordic, not Semitic. I have put a lot of links above for people to track and find out for themselves.

John Dos Passos' last words on his trilogy are not the final say, in fact are similarly incorrect.

Artur Rimbaud's last words on his poetry are not the final say and are not correct.

What a writer says at the time of the writing is from inside the experience of the imagination. What he says afterwards is from inside the experience of the reaction of the world to that work.

I'm sure Ezra Pound would have prefered H.D. not to publish his little love poems to her, but they were written and he did feel that way at the time.

And likewise I believe Tolkien was writing a pseudo-pagan mythology of England, not creating some sort of Catholic moral lesson.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I never said it was Semitic. And I definitely agree that it is Nordic. But it is a Christian, and more specifically a Catholic "twist" on Nordic mythology, in my opinion.

I actually do think I agree on that, though I don't presume to be certain on what you mean. I do certainly believe it is "pseudo-pagan", in that it takes certain elements of Pagan mythology and espouses them: but when it comes right down to it, I think that deep at heart, Tolkien's work is Christian, though it most certainly is "pesudo-pagan" in that it sprung from a love for pagan mythology, and espouses many parts of said pagan mythology and beliefs.

[Elfhelm]

The Catholic connection is via angels. I still don't see much of the teachings of Yeshua ben Yosef in there.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

And Saints, and Mary, and eucharist... And of course God.

As I told you before, pity, mercy, carrying one's cross, serving a greater good at cost to oneself, and various other themes.

But if Frodo had said "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth", that would of kinda blown the "non-overt" thing...

Of course, no doubt my Christianity makes me favourably inclined towards thinking it is Christian. And no doubt your anti-Christianity makes you favourable inclined towards thinking it isn't. Though as Tolkien was Christian, I think that the previous to be more likely.

[Elfhelm]

hmmm.. I thought it was your belief that the number of converts you make in life influences the size of your heavenly palace, and you were just using this forum to work that odd little pyramid scheme, which also has nothing to do with Jesus' teachings. So I just assumed your continual starting of thread about your religion was based on some sort of afterlife greed. That IS why you all Pros ... I mean bear witness, isn't it? So just go ahead and use JRRT to buy your little stairway, man. I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-decision-without-any-real-study.