08-30-2004, 09:57 AM | #21 | |
Fëanorophobic
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08-30-2004, 10:19 AM | #22 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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08-30-2004, 10:39 AM | #23 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-30-2004, 10:44 AM | #24 | |
Fëanorophobic
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I'll elaborate on my opinion later... |
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08-30-2004, 11:00 AM | #25 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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So you are saying elves, dwarves and hobbits etc. didn't have a mind of their own.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
08-30-2004, 11:21 AM | #26 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I think you are right however, in that free will exists in Arda for all its inhabitants, and that Middle Earth is heavily influenced by the fact that Tolkien was a Christian.
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08-30-2004, 05:47 PM | #27 |
Fëanorophobic
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Ok, here's my full opinion, brownjenkins:
Even if the Music was "as fate" to all other creatures, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't have free will. The Music just predicted their lives and their choices but didn't influence them in anyway. It's the same in Christianity. God knows our every step, our every choice; but that doesn't mean we're not free-willed. It just means that God has the power to know all of our actions beforehand without His influencing them. |
08-30-2004, 06:07 PM | #28 |
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probably very much as tolkien saw things, thanks
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
08-30-2004, 06:17 PM | #29 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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08-31-2004, 02:35 AM | #30 | |
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08-31-2004, 03:17 AM | #31 |
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Just like Beren has explained to us
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-06-2004, 01:36 PM | #32 | |
Enting
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09-06-2004, 01:38 PM | #33 |
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I woldn't say evil. Wrong yes but not evil.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-06-2004, 02:51 PM | #34 |
Enting
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i still say they're evil. theft, murder, rape, etc...aren't all these evil? you mean, when a person kills another, he merely commits something wrong and does not commit something evil?
yes, they're wrong. they're wrong because they're evil.
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mrs greenleaf Last edited by Fewin Greenleaf : 09-06-2004 at 03:02 PM. |
09-06-2004, 03:58 PM | #35 |
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No but other things. Lying. When you lie does that make you an evil person?
Boromir commited wrong but he wasn't evil.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-07-2004, 01:40 AM | #36 |
Enting
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Absolutely! When one lies, there is in him a deliberate intent to do wrong, to cause deception, to damage another individual's person. What is in the mind of a person lying is something that is evil.
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09-07-2004, 02:09 AM | #37 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Well everyone's told a lie before. Does that make everybody evil.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-07-2004, 02:56 AM | #38 |
Enting
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No, lying does not automatically make a person evil. It is what he does that is evil.
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09-07-2004, 10:43 AM | #39 | |
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I think it is much the same way for the "fate" of elves, and dwarves. (sidenote Hobbits descend from Humans so I think they are considered human. Thanks BoP) BAck to the fate thing. Elves, and dwarves as a whole have their fate already written down. THeir race has a path to take and that is the path they will take. However the individual elf or dwarf has the ability to shape his/her own life. For Men I think that their part wasnt already made so they could shape their lives as an individual and as a race. Also I could be wrong but didnt it say somewhere in the Silmarillion that the role of men in the last battle was unknown or something to that extent. For those who didnt understand what I was saying by those paragraphs meaning the difference between predicting a large body of people and individual I highly suggest Foundation by Isaac Asimov. It is a great book and very fun. Phew that was a lot of writing....
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09-07-2004, 11:26 AM | #40 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I liked that parallell to the Foundation series Haradrim. Though I don't agree that Hari Seldon's theories can be applied to Middle Earth.
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