05-06-2004, 06:25 AM | #21 | |
The Dude
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Quote:
well i guess i will just state that for me i think of the mind in physico-chemical terms rather than some spiritual soul, and i also find it hard for Beauty to exist outside of humans (for if beauty can why cant morality, and if morality can why cant God), now my dilemma is that i dont understand how Beauty (being a human construct) can be explained through physical terms, and so we meet a dead end in Millanes thoughts, and anything is possible its when i start thinking like that when the idea of God and spirituality start seeming less impossible
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05-06-2004, 11:01 AM | #22 | ||
The Blobbit
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Quote:
Quote:
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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05-06-2004, 11:46 AM | #23 |
Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
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Truth is Beauty, Beauty Truth.
IMO, something is art if it presents, or intends to present, a fundamental truth, in which case it's beautiful whether it's aesthetically attractive or not.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
05-06-2004, 11:55 AM | #24 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Reminds me of one of my all-time favorite bumper stickers : ---------------------------------- "God is dead" - Nietzsche "Nietzsche is dead" - God ----------------------------------
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-06-2004 at 11:57 AM. |
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05-06-2004, 12:02 PM | #25 | |
Lady of Letters
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My only knowledge of Nietzsche comes from studying his influence on Fascism, which gave me a rather limited picture of his ideas, so I'd be glad to learn more too...
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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05-06-2004, 01:30 PM | #26 | |
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-06-2004, 02:57 PM | #27 |
The Blobbit
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Erm... possibly... I suppose you only say so as a rhetorical question. But actually whatever the movie says is 'hollywood' and, while one must find beauty and truth for oneself, one doesn't want to be told to find it for oneself by hollywood.
You said that the film made a point about truth and beauty, while I said regardless of what the film said I felt bad to take something from the film. I can't articulate it properly... I'm just a blobbit. I don't know anything about Nietsche either, but I thought that was rather good.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
05-06-2004, 07:55 PM | #28 | |||
"The Bomb"
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't think beauty is exactly made by humans, but only noticed by different individuals, so it wouldn't be fair to compare it to the invented and universal codes of morality. Quote:
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 05-06-2004 at 07:57 PM. |
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05-07-2004, 02:21 AM | #29 | |
Elf Lord
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Location: Ilha Formosa
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Th Essential Nietszche, Part 1:
The Parable of the Madman Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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05-07-2004, 12:13 PM | #30 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thanks for the quote, GM!
Comments, anyone? What does it mean to you guys? Do you agree/disagree?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-07-2004, 02:07 PM | #31 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Location: Reality
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i've always seen this as an expression of nietszche's view on modern society... when he speaks of god as dead, he is speaking of the death of traditional values and roles in society, not calling for the death of god
the ironic part is that nietszche expressed many of the same views that many religions do... that without god there can be no morals... except he believed that there was indeed no god and took it to what he saw as it's logical conclusions i, on the other hand, think people can be perfectly moral with or without god
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
05-07-2004, 02:46 PM | #32 |
The Blobbit
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Yes, but what is the relevance of being able to be good, if people aren't? Isn't that where religion and morality come into play? Do you feel society is now immoral, and if so what shouldbe done about it? Is it even a bad thing that society is immoral?
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
05-07-2004, 03:01 PM | #33 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i prefer the idea that the best way to lead a moral life is to realize that in the long run it is beneficial to one's self to be reasonable with and respectful of other people... as opposed to morals based upon the influence of some divine being while these divine morals can be good, they can just as easily be bad... and unlike the more 'down to earth' morals, they are harder to argue against if bad because, after all, they are the word of god i think if people think more about the here and now, and less about the after, they will move towards a more moral life because they will realize that this is all they've got... and they better make the most of it
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-07-2004, 03:08 PM | #34 | |
Rohirrim Warrior
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"Art teaches nothing, except the significance of life." ~ Michael Korda I believe art can have several meanings but it all depends on the person. For me art is an expression of a feeling or idea. Art is not limited to just sculpting, painting, and drawing. For example, poetry is considered to be an artistic expression. By creating art I think that is when we realize the beauty in something. I'm not sure if art exists "naturally" because art is the result of feelings, emotions and ideas blended together. |
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05-07-2004, 03:09 PM | #35 | |
The Blobbit
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Also, the thing to remember about religion is that the people adhering to it are still human, and their failings, not to mention misunderstandings often lead to problems. It is not necessarily untrue that the proportion of 'good' to 'bad' people (though one cannot catagorise) in religion is any greater than out of it.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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05-07-2004, 03:52 PM | #36 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
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when people think of the moment only, they can fall into the 'i'll take what i can get now' lifestyle when people think of the afterlife, they can fall into the 'martyrdom' lifestyle please note that i said can... i think these people are a minority in both situations Quote:
what i am talking about is the generally 'good' people, who do bad things as a result of their belief system... do you think a terrorist would lay down his or her life if they knew in their heart that there was no afterlife to be redeemed in? does this mean that all or even some religious people are terrorists? absolutely not! but the belief in a divine being, and more importantly the belief that some humans on this earth can express the will of this divine being allows people to toss aside common sense morals for what they see as a greater absolutes and the problems with this kind of belief system do not have to necessarily be the 'life and death' kind... it can be as simple as 'i don't trust him because he's a muslim' or a catholic, or a jew
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. Last edited by brownjenkins : 05-07-2004 at 03:55 PM. |
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05-08-2004, 12:08 AM | #37 |
"The Bomb"
Join Date: Apr 2003
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We just had an argument in school today on this very topic.
My atheist and violently anti-religious schoolmate believed that nothing was a moral issue, and he somehow tried to justify this with my friend's response that everything is a moral issue. I delved deeper, saying that if any one person believes something to be either moral or immoral, it becomes a moral issue (or "issue of morality," because that apparently made for some confusion). Ultimately, there was no point whatsoever to that argument, but I found out what I had already only partially known, but more fully than either of them: morality is definately an individual decision. Catholic school preaches about morality, calling it something like a code of behaviour established by God for human souls to diffrentiate between what is good and what is evil. That sounds acceptable, but nah. Different people can always disagree over what is acceptable and what is not, and both will usually disregard the Church's standards. They don't have any reason to care; this is what they are accepting, their morals, their detailed principles. God doesn't seem to come into there at any point for anybody, but I guess the Bible's just calling the Beeadditudes God's own morals he expects us to live by. (They're too vague.) The social average of these arguments is ethics, to lay down exactly which side of the debate will be generally frowned upon.
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? |
05-08-2004, 04:32 PM | #38 |
The Blobbit
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*is horrified to discover established member Bomb is actually younger than self*
This is the problem I have in moral debates. People our age seem to be split into three groups. The religious, the philosophic, and the immoral. The religious stick to religious teaching, the philosophic attempt to make reasonable debate, and the immoral throw everything out on the grounds that there is no God, so morality just inpinges on their chosen lifstyle. It kills debate. Brownjenkens, sorry I didn't realise... how long short-term was In reference to your point reguarding genes and predispostion, and the ADD thread, do yo actually agree with the notion of diagnosing people based on our understanding of genetics/psychology? I feel that while people can have ADD, it becomes excusism. I think it essentially de-humanises, no longer can you attribute the actions to the human but only to the conditon. But, by induction, intelligent people have genes which make them so. So intelligence is a condition and no intelligent action or discovery can be attributed to the individual, only their condition.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
05-09-2004, 05:56 AM | #39 | |
Elf Lord
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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05-09-2004, 06:05 AM | #40 | |
Elf Lord
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After all, modern suicide bombing started with the Tamil Tigers, whose goal was the creation of a Tamil homeland in northern Sri Lanka. I think identification with a cause greater than the individual, religious or not, is the root motivation of martyrdom.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 05-09-2004 at 06:08 AM. |
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