07-08-2004, 05:23 PM | #21 |
Fëanorophobic
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So, Olmer, what do you suggest? Would you rather Gandalf did not "manipulate" Bilbo and Frodo? How many would have died then? And besides, isn't Gandalf to be given credit for his serving the common good rather than looking after his friends?
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07-12-2004, 07:17 PM | #22 |
Enting
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Gandalf the wise
All I gotta say is that Gandalf has probably become my favorite character. After reading the chapter section in Unfinished Tales (Of The Quest to Erebor), I knew he was cunning and wise, I just didn't know he was that manipulative! I like how he states that his "chance" meeting with Thorin had saved Middle Earth.
I was surprised after reading Gandalf's suspicion that Sauron wanted to attack Lorien and Rivendell first. If Sauron would've done that, it might've been a whole different ending. But Gandalf pretty much orchestrated the major events and saved Middle Earth! If Sauron wouldn't had to have changed his plans (because Smaug was killed), he would've had more forces in Gondor, and most likely had destroyed Gondor with the help of Smaug. Another thing that I hadn't really known was that the Mirkwood Elves and the Men of Dale and Dwarves were fighting Sauron's Northern forces. I knew the fight was going on somewhere else, but I didn't know why. If Bilbo wouldn't have helped the dwarves and taken the ring, the efforts of Aragorn and the West would've been for naught. Kind of puts the saying, "The time will come when Hobbits will shape the fortunes of all" into perspective.
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07-19-2004, 11:52 AM | #23 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Gandalf is brilliant and scary person, and I just don't understand why, after consideration of all facts, many people still percieve him as a good old grandfather, some kind of stylized Santa, when, in fact, he is nothing like that. I already discussed his nature in another thread:Olmer's POV on Gandalf. Quote:
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As I said, Bilbo succeded by pure luck IN SPITE of Gandalf's best layed plans |
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07-19-2004, 12:26 PM | #24 |
Elf Lord
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Olmer, Tolkien mentions exactly what Gandalf knew in the appendixes - he didn't know, he only suspected. I'm sure that if he knew, he'd send Frodo back then, and that way there was no much problem getting to Mordor.
Gandalf states himself why he chose Biblo - it's written in the UT. There's no need to guess why he brought Bilbo. |
07-19-2004, 12:56 PM | #25 | |
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07-19-2004, 03:56 PM | #26 | |
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Second - I don't tihnk it's the history of hobbits, or as they knew, I'm pretty sure they weren't aware of most of the events in Appendix B. As for UT - What's wrong with Gandalf, though? I'd believe him. He really had nothing to hide after the Ring was destroyed. |
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07-19-2004, 04:34 PM | #27 | |
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07-19-2004, 04:37 PM | #28 | |
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For the rest, like I say, I don't agree with Olmer... but the appendix history is as the hobbits got it from Gondor, thanks to their relationship with King Elessar, IIRC (IIRC = If I Recall Correctly! )
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07-19-2004, 05:27 PM | #29 | |
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07-19-2004, 10:06 PM | #30 | |
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Before throwing yourself into a fight, would not be better to avoid embarrassment by carefully re-reading Prologue of the LOTR, chapter "Note on the Shire Records"? Valandil told you the Basic knowledge: Tolkien implied that the whole information about Middle-earth and its history, which goes an eons beyond, came to us in 4 volumes of The Red Book of Westmarch, written by hobbits as a diary, and therefore description of events was reported from their point of view. P.S. I Think it's nothing to discuss about Gandalf's manipulating nature. It 's obvious. Case closed. |
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07-20-2004, 07:21 AM | #31 | |
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A quote from LotR - 'It was probably at Great Smials that 'The Tale of Years' was put together, with the assistance material collected by Meriadoc. Though the dates given are often conjectural, especially for the Second Age, They deserve attention. It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistant and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once.' No, I don't want to be embarrassed, but I don't really see how I am wrong. Except Elrond really didn't help him, nor Galadriel - but his sons, maybe, or other elves that stayed, could. And probably did, as mentioned. Last edited by Radagast The Brown : 07-20-2004 at 04:24 PM. |
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07-20-2004, 02:00 PM | #32 |
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Well, when you consider the fact that he could have blasted a hole in Bilbo's house and threatened to turn him into a toad with luekemia, manipulating him a little doesn't sound too bad.... :-?
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07-20-2004, 02:33 PM | #33 | |
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dragons get killed... and sometimes people escape the elven dungeons if the ring was his sole concern, and all the sudden it was literally 'in his hands' as you might say... he would have done something to assure it would not fall into the wrong hands and on the 'history written by hobbits' pov... if you like conspiracy theories, one could just as easily say that it was the hobbits who put down the story that subtely painted gandalf as a manipulator in order to put themselves in a better light can anything truely be considered "case closed" knowing that these stories are only seen from a single pov?
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07-21-2004, 11:07 PM | #34 | |
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Interesting thought
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Would anyone care to speculate if JRRT put this much thought into how he wrote about Middle Earth? Although JRRT has put, IMHO, much care and thought into his writing, I think this would be giving him a bit too much credit. (although it is possible.) Olmer, I enjoy reading your theories since your find support for them from the text. I do not really agree with the conclusions you draw but I find them interesting to read and read the debate that ensues.
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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08-06-2004, 12:55 AM | #35 | |||
Elf Lord
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Therefore, if you scrupulously study the events, then behind hobbit's naive and ecstatic description of Gandalf you can see as taking shape another, quite different portrait of the wizard. Quote:
mithrand1r Quote:
I am trying to bring this "mountains" to much closer vicinity. Thanks for the words of support .It is a relieve to know that at least somebody is interested in supposedly wild theories Last edited by Olmer : 08-06-2004 at 09:58 AM. |
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08-06-2004, 03:37 PM | #36 | ||
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however, if you read my posts, you will see that i also think of him as manipulative... i just see a different set of goals and motivations for that manipulation than you do i have read this thread... though not in a while ... and your other posts... and i find your observations extremely interesting and insightful... and even your conclusions possible, but not definative
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08-13-2004, 02:21 PM | #37 |
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I think that if Gandalf had totally manipulated them then he would have left them, but he didn't. He left Bilbo to attend the White Council and drive the Necromancer (AKA Sauron) out of Mirkwood but returned to them in Erebor and left Frodo to seek guidance from Saruman and returned to him and volunteered to guide him to Mordor.
So yes Gandalf did manipulate them but not half as much as people are making out. |
08-19-2004, 11:58 PM | #38 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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Some mooters have been mentionin gforesight as this kind of I see a picture and know exactly whats going to happen. I think this foresight existed in tolkiens world but I dont think Gandalf had it. I think Gandalf had a feeling. He knew he was interested in the outside world. He probably also knew he had some took in him. He probably felt a pull towards Bilbo almost a knowing that Bilbo should go and that he would be helpful. I think my views on his foresight are proved in LOTR. If he knew outcomes then why was he so worried about pellenor fields. And why was he worried about the destruction of the ring. If he knew then he would have been fine and relaxed the whole time.
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08-20-2004, 03:55 PM | #39 |
Elf Lord
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When I think of foresight I don't think he knows everything - not at all. You know only few things, glimpse of things that would happen - like the warning of Aragorn to Gandalf not to get into Moria, or Melian saying to Thingol that a man of Beor's men will get into Doriath. They don't know everthing - when, how, etc. - and sometimes are not sure it will surely hapen.
I do think Gandalf had this talent - he explains it as a feeling, I think it's kind of a foresight. (He explains it in UT) |
08-20-2004, 04:00 PM | #40 |
Fëanorophobic
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Well, if we're back on this topic, I'd like to make a point:
I can surely see why you'd call Gandalf manipulative after his bullying Bilbo into joining the dwarves. But how did he manipulate Frodo? Frodo volunteered (OUT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL) to take the Ring to Mordor. Where does Gandalf's manipulation come in the picture? |
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