Pointed ears?

WOW! For my opinion on wings see my pic in the Fan Art thread.

Actually I conceived the Balrog being like a shadow creature, sort of like a blown up version of the "gebbeth" from Ursula le Guin's "A Wizard of Earthsea". (Or rather the gebbeth was a shrunk Balrog?)

It has wings because it wants to have wings. Howzat?

I think I was more spooked by the le Guin's gebbeth than by the Balrog.

Just playing Necromancer and bringing a long dwad topic back to life

There are two points generally used by the 'Elves have pointed ears' supporters.

1) In an early letter of Tolkien's, soon after the publication or just before the publication of The Hobbit, found naturally in the Tolkien Letters, JRR Tolkien says the ears of Hobbits were slightly pointed, and Elvish.

and

2) In a partly illegible etymological note on the element 'las' in the Etymologies to The Lost Road and Other Writings in the History of Middle-earth series, Quendian ears are stated to be more pointed than that of Men.

However, I don't feel these to be very good arguments. If I presented these facts to you without any elaboration, many of you, not searching for anymore, would probably be inclined to say 'okay, Elves have pointed ears'. But this is out of context. That famous (or notorious) letter was an explanation of how to draw Bilbo, for the use of American artists. They would not know what Tolkien's Elves look like anymore than they did Hobbits. Tolkien must therefore be referring to Shakespeare's Elves, who's name was spelled with a 'v,' like Tolkien's, and who did in fact have pointed ears.

The real bombshell is the Etymological note. Those Etymologies go with the older mythology. All the names of all the kindreds of Elves were different, and the entire mythos was alien. Eressea was England, Yavanna was an Elvish Queen, and so forth. In all other books there is no passage to them having ears, and they are actually implied not to have. In Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin, found in Unfinished Tales, two Sindarin Elves (I think that is who they were, the same who later visited Orodreth and Turin) recognized Tuor as a Man and not an Elf because of his eyes. A difference of ear-shape would have been much more apparent.

Supposing they did have pointed ears lands them in some absurdities. In the Narn-I-Hin-Hurin, found in Unfinished Tales, Sador the serving-man of Dor Lomin tells a young Turin that his little sister looks very much like an Elven child, for Elves and Men develop in much the same way until they hit their coming of age, 20 at the time, I think, and then the Elves slow down in aging and the especial fairness is more noted. If you take their close resemblance into account in youth, you would be inclined to believe Elves don't grow their pointed ears until much older. But there are other examples. The existence of Elvish blood in Mannish veins must imply a varying shape in ears if Elves have pointed ears. But Numenoreans of such kinds were never noted for their ears, when confused with Elves it was because of their fairness and the light of their eyes (this is stated a few times).

Tolkien notes (forgive me for bringing it up) in the Appendices to Of Galadriel and Celeborn (which is confused and confusing) that the House of the Princes of Dol Amroth were noted in their Elvishness because of a beardlessness. It is said there that all the Eldar did not grow beards. Now, to keep things clear, although this is also a controversy, Tolkien put a beard on Cirdan, a long silver one, I believe. If he remembered he had, he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it like everything else published in his life. My point is that in noting the Elvish strain in them he did not turn to a very significant difference, a biological one in ears, but created a much more subtle one, beardlessness, which was not, I stress, correct.

Moreover, Tolkien said Elves and Men are biologically the same.

I haven't read all of the other posts, forgive me if these points are covered.

I might add that not too long ago I believed Elves had pointed ears. I got in a big debate with Michael Martinez over it, and thinking about what he said afterwards, my mind opened up. I then began to look at things a little differently, and realize the truth of his words. I soon came to know 'yeah, I guess they didn't have pointed ears'. It was the last drop of poison in my veins from David Day Wormtongue, released by the good Gandalf Martinez.

[edited: I read the others. I was a little redundant, but I think this post still serves its purpose.

As for Balrogs. I've already gone back and forth about it a while ago.

I will only say two things. I believe Balrogs had wings. Not animal like wings, that is, not like John Howe's Balrogish wings, but 'shadowy' wings.

I'd like to relate a little story to you all. It may be typical. I was talking to my dad one day. My dad at the time was rereading the Lord of the Rings after being away from it for something like ten years. He was rediscovering it. He's not a purist or anything, he doesn't study it, he just enjoys reading it. This particular day, I believe he had soon gotten done reading The Bridge of Khazad-dum. He made a passing reference to 'winged Balrog' or something along those lines.

I stopped him. 'You know dad, there's a big controversy about that.' 'About what?', he says. 'About the wings. Some people don't think they had any.' He looked at me skeptically, 'But it says "and its wings were spread from wall to wall" ' he says, and he exhibited his outspread arms as evidence. 'I know dad, I know.'

[SECOND EDIT: :lol: I just read your post, easterlinge! I wish I had known I was posting on a year old thread. I was wondering how so many responses could have piled up over night!]

:lol:

I didn't know anyone would fall for it!!

Actually some of the old posts are interesting. Informative for us newer guys and gals.

I have never pictured Elves with pointed ears,I picture them as tall and willowy with green,grey or blue eyes that always reflect the stars so the green or grey or blue eyes would be dark green,grey,or blue with little sparkly lights in them,they have dark brown hair(almost black)and they normaly dress in what ever color they grew up around like if the elf grew up in Mirkwood he'd wear dark dark green with some brown and his eyes would be green shot with light brown,if he grew up near the sea he'd dress in a stormy grey and he'd have grey eyes with a bit of green,but no pointed ears(unlike the LOTR movie elves and hobbits who have ears that are big enough to be sonar equipment)and I have never pictured the Balrogs with wings,they're dark and sinewy and they can wrap a dark cloud of evil and fear around them and it's that cloud what LOOKS like wings.
Sammy

If the balrog did have wings why did it fall in the chasm at Moria? Sure it was fighting with Gandalf, but why not fly out of the chasm and let the wizard fall to the bottom?

With or without wings he could probably 'fly out', as a Maia who's form is not altogether constant I doubt he needs wings to fly. Or maybe there being a great man shape in all that darkness he was more physical and wouldn't be able to without wings. But the wings themselves are not the appendages attached to birds. They came out of the shadow, and are obviously of it. Maybe even with those he couldn't fly. With the Ainur, their form is a testimony to their personality. Does Yavanna really need to stand as a tree under heaven? The Balrog doesn't fly with the wings on the bridge, so one must wonder what they are needed for anyway. They aren't, they are not a means, they are an expression of its personality. It did have wings, when first the Fellowship is deciphering them, it is 'like wings', and then a little later they are called wings; 'and its wings were spread from wall to wall'.

In The Great River the winged shadow that is the Nazgul'a steed reminds of Gimli of the Balrog.

But even so, there's no evidence he was after anyone but Gandalf, maybe he specifically wanted Gandalf, and destroying him was the goal. They fell an awful long time, maybe he was keeping them aloft. Curious, that they would be battling as they fell, difficult to my mind when you imagine the realistic speed they must have been going, heading down that chasm.

the reason i feel that the balrog would fly out of the chasm instead of falling is that i feel that the balrog, being a maia, would be able to feel the presence of the ring that frodo is carrying. Although the balrog would not be totally under its dominion such as the nazgul were i think that he would be able to detect it and it would be more important than Gandalf to the balrog. Point well taken on the fact that the maia fall to a form that represents them and that the wings would not necessarily enable the balrog to fly.

If he did sense it he wouldn't be under its dominion at all, he would be tempted by it. Is that what you meant? But I don't know that any Maiar could sense the presence of the Ring (save Sauron, in certain instances). Where does it say that? Anyway we don't have any examples to work from, we don't (or I don't) know if Gandalf could sense the Ring and Sauron's case is obvious. What other Maiar are we to work from? From Gandalf we can't draw any conclusions about the Balrog.

It is clear, however, that if Gandalf could sense the One Ring, he could not sense that it was the One Ring. As the Tale of Years show, he didn't even suspect it to be the Ring until the day of Bilbo's Farewell Party. Then he had to do research to confirm his suspicion. So if the Balrog is like Gandalf in any way, he wouldn't have known the One Ring was before him.

The main argument people come up with is that the Balrog served Sauron, but we don't have any evidence of that. The Orcs there were sent from him (Sauron), Sauron seems to at least know about the Balrog ... it seems unlikely to me he would have been able to become its master, and even assuming they formed an alliance of some sort would Sauron really have trusted the thing with the knowledge of the key to world dominance? I doubt it.

"The Balrog doesn't fly with the wings on the bridge, so one must wonder what they are needed for anyway. They aren't, they are not a means, they are an expression of its personality. "

Sort of like the dodo, you mean, Inoldonil? Dodos can't fly either. Wonder what its wings were for? :lol:

And like Balrogs, dodos are extinct.

Maybe the Balrog didn't fly because the wings were too small.

Or maybe because Gandalf prevented it from flying. I once saw a documentary where 2 eagles duelled each other: they didn't fly very well at all. In fact they tumbled to the ground, and broke away just in time.

So maybe the Balrog had trouble flying and fighting at the same time.

HTML is not allowed in the forum. Bah!!

Sort of like the dodo, you mean, Inoldonil? Dodos can't fly either. Wonder what its wings were for?

:lol: point well taken. But the Dodos and other birds like them supposedly had evolved from a species that did fly, but as they changed they lossed the need (but not the wings).

Maybe the Balrog didn't fly because the wings were too small.

That's impossible. The wings weren't constant, it must be understood. It didn't have any wings until after Gandalf spoke about the Flame of Udun and the Secret Fire. Then the 'fire in it seemed to die', but the shadow grew and stretched out 'like two vast wings', emphasis mine. Eventually 'its wings were spread from wall to wall'. Those are gigantic wings.

Or maybe because Gandalf prevented it from flying.

We've read about the confrontation of Gandalf and the Balrog, in detail on the Bridge, which is the fight concerned in my comment that you quoted. The Balrog leaped full on the Bridge, there was a clash of swords, Boromir and Aragorn rushed to help Gandalf, Gandalf broke the bridge, The Balrog fell, he took Gandalf with him. Gandalf didn't prevent him from flying!

Then we have Gandalf's brief recount of what happened afterwards. They fell for a long time, and Gandalf hewed him and was clutched and burned, they fought in the air, then they plunged into extremely cold water, and the Balrog became a thing of slime. The fought a bit more, then the Balrog fled up the Stair, Gandalf followed up, up to Durin's Tower and the pinnacle of the Mountains of Moria. There was a magical battle up there, with lightning and flame, and Gandalf cast him down and killed him, before dying himself.

Where's the flight prevention to enter?

I can see where the flight can come in, in the fall down the Chasm, as they fought in the air and fell for a very long time.

" point well taken. But the Dodos and other birds like them supposedly had evolved from a species that did fly, but as they changed they lossed the need (but not the wings)."

Maybe Balrogs could fly once, long ago.... but became altered (by Morgoth?) and lost the ability? In which case the wings are a vestige from the time they could fly... like the dodos and kiwis...

Or maybe the Balrog of Moria spent so much time underground it forgot how to fly, its wings atrophied from lack of use.