04-01-2005, 06:24 PM | #21 |
Elf Lord
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JD,
This is an April Fools Day post, right? You trot out hackneyed old communist arguments and expect us to think you are serious, right? And the Beatles as philosophers? (They never seemed to connect with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi did they?)
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
04-01-2005, 06:26 PM | #22 | |
The Intermittent One
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4 is common sociological explanation, nice post JD |
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04-01-2005, 06:28 PM | #23 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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As for the beatles quote - that's dead serious. Why do you think after 9/11 the churches were filled. What - it lasted maybe a month or two? That is an example of god being a concept by which we measure our pain. For the most part when things are going badly - people have a habit of turning toward god and religion. When things are going good, god is many times the furtherst thing from people's minds.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-01-2005 at 06:30 PM. |
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04-01-2005, 11:24 PM | #24 | ||
Elf Lord
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Anyway, just a theory .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-02-2005, 01:12 AM | #25 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I"m too pooped to answer the rest - I have some wedding stuff going on this weekend and I have a bunch of clean-up and decorating to do - I'll be back next week
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-02-2005 at 01:15 AM. |
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04-02-2005, 01:16 AM | #26 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-02-2005, 01:19 AM | #27 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-02-2005, 01:32 AM | #28 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-02-2005, 05:21 AM | #29 | |
The Dude
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thats my elitist coment for the day.... JD nice with the Beatles quote, we should make a thread were we can discuss lyrics that deal with religion and philosophy, make for some interesting discussion.
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04-02-2005, 09:13 PM | #30 | |
Elf Lord
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I think what religion boils down to are several things... 1) As the Beatles said - "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" 2) Death is scary, by believing in an afterlife, it makes it easier to deal with someone dying, let alone oneself (if I believed in heaven - I would see my mother when I die). 3) Religion was a way to explain natural phenomenon that was not understood at the time, but today we have science to explain. 4) Religion was a way for governments to control people, by putting the fear of god into them." OK, JD, since I now understand you were serious, I'll respond seriously. #4 is the standard Marxist argument "religion is the opiate of the people" which is why I made the remark about the hackneyed phrase. But his and subsequent attempts to replace religion with government resulted in multitudinous and greater massacres and destruction than all the religious wars combined. Government control under communism meant in most places the substitution of the state (and whoever had control of it's apparatik) for God with the usurpation of perogatives previously limited to Him and none of His consolations. The 20 million Stalin starved to death in forced relocations and communalisation of farming are one glaring example. #3 There is no doubt that some aspects of nature religions were intended to explain natural phenomena, eg, the virgin in the volcano and storm gods et alia. But religion goes beyond this to assert the encounter with the numinous, the AWE-ful, for which nature is but the universal symbolic experience. The explanation of natural phenomena by science equally can move persons to the numinous - whether on the macro-, micro-, or quantum level! So while this accounts for a subset of religious experiences (explanation of natural process by idealized human-like gods), it does not explain all of them. The religious experiences of Hinduism and Buddhism come to mind. #2 Death can be scary. But it too is a universal human experience - going back to early stone-age cultures for which we have archeological evidence - that has been met with specific actions at burial revealing a near-universal expectation of an afterlife. This belief that the individual survives somehow into the next existence after the body loses its active principle has many expressions in many modes. It would seem that the expectation preceded formal religious experience or intellectualization. Religions then proffered explanations and beliefs. In this case, I think the evidence points to a universal human experience of which religion is a major manifestation with the emphasis on the on-going connectedness of humans. The details differ to be sure from religion to religion. #1 If we are to regard the Beatle's statement philosphically, it is a valid comment on human experience as you have it stated. For many persons the turn to religion or God indeed comes at events in which their previously ordered world fell into chaos. For religious persons, it can be point at which their trust level is overwhelmed and they become a-religious or anti-religious. Folks who have some underlying religious belief not impacting most of their lives are brought up against the inevitability of death and human wickedness and seek answers. That is a valid religious response. It is not, however, the only measure of religious belief. It is a rather obvious one. So, IMHO, these views do not explain away religion, but point to the interfaces of human experience which make humans respond religiously. And that response may be the substitution of one religion for another (as in the opiat of the people is the government, for instance); its incorporation of scientific explanation and relocation of the object of belief and purpose of belief; its value in affirming the interconnectedness of humans in life and beyond; and, its resources for dealing with the big problems of natural disaster and human wickedness. None of these points invalidate religion(s). They provide points for entry or exit. Differing religions can be assessed on how they deal with these issues and ranked in moral qualities. But then again, I believe. That means, as CS Lewis observed in MERE CHRISTIANITY, that I may well have more in common with a tribal fetishist than adamant non-believers. Not necessarily in specific beliefs, but in a common understanding of belief.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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04-03-2005, 02:34 AM | #31 | |||
Elf Lord
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Also, the fact that these disasters marked his efforts to subdue religion do not mean that he was right. Just as the fact that some people were involved in the Crusades do not mean that Christians are wrong, the fact that some atheists were involved in massive persecution of the religious does not mean that they are wrong. Quote:
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However, none of these points invalidates religion. It is impossible to make the assertion that these points are true for everyone or every case. They are the case sometimes. That doesn't make them constants. Indeed, they are very, very far from constants. Like you pointed out, Inked, religion is enormously expansive, throughout human lifespan. Indeed, there are indications that even the neanderthals believed in an afterlife and carefully buried one another. It is far from always a mechanism for control, an explanation of natural phenomenon, or interest in the afterlife. Countless people come to religion entirely of their own volition, for none of these reasons. Indeed, many people come to religion out of spiritual hunger, out of need, out of sensing their own inadequecy. This quiet desperation frequently has nothing to do with the later, but much more to do with the here and now. It can arise among those who are in great homes, in successful businesses- in any station in life or surroundings. I know because I felt that desperation completely separate from any real "reason" that can be pointed to. I was extremely comfortable, had numerous games about me, a marvelous family. I was under no pressures of any kind. Suddenly this hunger began to grow in me, a hunger that actually sometimes felt almost physical. I felt as though I had a second stomach, and one of them could never be filled. Once or twice I even considered eating a large amount more then normal, just to see if that would fill it, it was such a real hunger. It was a constant though, one that would not depart until I experienced meeting God. This hunger was utterly separate and inexplicable. It was something placed on me by the High One, an extremely unpleasant thing that led to marvelous blessings. Anyway . . . those reasons the Beatles have fall short and are inadequate for countless people's experiences. They are interesting food for thought. They are accurate pointers to some people's religion. They are ridiculous if viewed as "the explanation" for religion .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-03-2005, 05:42 AM | #32 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Although I'm quoting Lief here - not all my response is directed at him, some doesn't even portain to him.
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Inked scoffs at religion being a way for government to control the masses. He seems to be looking at a very narrow view of history though. I'm not talking about the limited 50 years in the 20th century. For one thing - that isn't even considered historical. I'm talking about how in medieval times religion was used by governments and even before that. Many of those things became part of culture, but today we no longer look at the historical aspects of why things are the way they are with a religion Look at the way religion - islam in this case - is used in Iran and other Middle Eastern countries by the Imans. Inks statements and some of yours show me that you only look at religion from the modern chirstian view - in which case I was not merely talking about christianity - nor was I talking about only modern times. Many people on entmoot look at religion through a very very narrow lens. When religion is mentioned - they automatically think of Christianity. Well I have news for people out there - the world is a big big place - and Christianity is NOT the only religion out there. It may sound surprising - but it's a fact. People should try celebrating a Sader or a muslim festival. I don't mean to recruit either - but to actually open your eyes and see the differences in religion and actually learn about another culture. Also - I'm not anti-religion at all. I just don't really care about it too much.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-03-2005, 11:23 AM | #33 | |
Elf Lord
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I'll respond to the rest of your post later.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-03-2005, 11:50 AM | #34 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-03-2005, 01:22 PM | #35 |
Elf Lord
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I am curious to hear what examples you can site as to how the Church of England has manipulated the masses in recent years.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-03-2005, 01:31 PM | #36 |
The Intermittent One
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if 500,000 people state a certain religion as their religion on their census returns, it becomas one of the official religions of britain, there was a plot for Jedi to become an official religion by the Sun newspaper last time (2001)
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04-03-2005, 01:45 PM | #37 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Speaking just for myself, the instant I learned of Ñólendil being a Hindu, I started an email contact with him (her?) to discuss religion, with an emphasis on learning about Hinduism. I have researched Islam some, writing a report on Early Islam and doing research on their beliefs. I wouldn't be in all of these debate threads if I wasn't interested in learning at all about atheism or agnosticism . The fact is, we aren't all potatoes spending all our time revelling on heavenly couches . I am only four years old spiritually, still, also. Give me more time, and I'll have done more . This is also just me. Your general statement about Christians definitely is only related to a part of our number, and possibly that part of our number is not the majority. Neither of us knows how many heavenly couch potatoes there are in Christianity. Your statement that we should celebrate a religious festival to a different religion seems rather strange to me. Should I show that I am a Christian by involving myself in a pagan religion? What does that show about my faith, except that it is weak?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-03-2005, 10:05 PM | #38 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-03-2005, 11:39 PM | #39 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-04-2005, 01:38 AM | #40 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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