400 Held Hostage in Russian School

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Valandil

One unfortunate thing too is that anytime terrorists are successful with having their demands granted when they take hostages, what does that do? It encourages more terrorists to take hostages.

This will sound quite cruel, but is it your duty, if you're a world leader, to consider those who are taken hostage as dead already? Then you do what you have to do - and if you can save some, all the better? It would be awful for those who are hostages that day, but does it save everyone else from greater likelihood of being made a hostage?

Please note that I'm not convinced of this nor advocating it... I just raise the question.

I agree. People are going to die either way. You cant give them what they want, they will keep asking.
The British SAS have the right idea. They contend that the terrorists are going to die anyway, via suicide or assault, so killed 'em fast and save as many as you can. If half die, then, sadly but truthfully, half have been saved. Its a lose lose situation, the question is, how many can you save?

Damn the terrorists, and I hope the russian special forces kill them all.

[Artanis]

I cannot disagree more. I'm all for trying to save as many lives as possible now, in the present situation, even the lives of the terrorists, and not think about what may happen later.

Save the hostages. Damn the terrorists yes, but kill them not if it can be avoided.

[Draken]

Call me pessimistic, but I always get worried when an army calls up armoured vehicles for a hostage situation.

Can't see a happy ending to this one I'm afraid.

As to the SAS approach (or that of any similar Western unit, I'd imagine), they don't set the policy, they enact it. The usual approach would be to negotiate so long as there is any hope of a peaceful outcome. What usually triggers a military response is confirmation of the first hostage being killed. And when the hostage takers are suspected of being able to trigger explosives, there would be very little prospect of time being wasted in accepting any attempted surrenders.

How adept the Russian forces are in this situation isn't clear - their track record to date isn't encouraging.

[Draken]

The school has been stormed it seems - very confused reports of many injured.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Draken

Call me pessimistic, but I always get worried when an army calls up armoured vehicles for a hostage situation.

Can't see a happy ending to this one I'm afraid.

As to the SAS approach (or that of any similar Western unit, I'd imagine), they don't set the policy, they enact it. The usual approach would be to negotiate so long as there is any hope of a peaceful outcome. What usually triggers a military response is confirmation of the first hostage being killed. And when the hostage takers are suspected of being able to trigger explosives, there would be very little prospect of time being wasted in accepting any attempted surrenders.

How adept the Russian forces are in this situation isn't clear - their track record to date isn't encouraging.

About the SAS, your bang on the money, and it seems you know your stuff. Once a single hostage has been killed, they go in.

But the thing about explosives strapped to their chests; the SAS (slash, any modern western counter-terrorist unit), train for this eventuality. At Princes Gate in the early eighties, they stormed an embassy held by ten odd terrorists, holding 30 odd hostages, and killed them all. The terrorists had radio triggers to a bomb in the embassy. They have their ways to circumvent the problem.

And if what I am reading is correct, (at the time of post), the russians killed five terrorists, lost four children, but saved TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY CHILDREN. Bloody bravo gentlemen. Bravo.

oh if that aint worth a smile, what is?

[Draken]

Yep they have all sorts of grenades that can totally stun you for a few vital seconds.

I hope the figures are right - but let's wait a while yet. It might take some time before we get an accurate picture of what happened.

[Valandil]

Sounds like it's all been coming down the last several hours. Here's some of what I've read:

It looks like there may have even been as many as 1500 hostages in total. They were being held without food or water.

There are about 100 dead bodies in the gymnasium - the roof partially collapsed, likely due to an explosion. There were more bodies in other parts of the building.

Saw a headline that 350 have been taken to a hospital.

Five captors are dead... possibly 13 have escaped to hole up in a neighboring building - where they are now surrounded.

[Valandil]

Just read how the fighting started: Several children were trying to escape and the captors started shooting at them and chasing them. The troops responded by firing back... and must have known that they had to make their move then, or all inside were doomed.

[Valandil]

Those hostages that were released before the fighting started: my wife heard a report that parents were allowed in to take a child, but had to chose which child to take out and which to leave behind.

[Valandil]

Not sure if it's over yet or not. Just read there were something like 40 terrorists involved. That once the fighting began, they split into 3 groups - 5 people staying behind to cover the escape of the others (wonder if those were the first 5 confirmed dead?), some trying to outright escape and others trying to blend in with the hostages... I'd think the latter would be quickly turned in / discovered.

Sounds like there may still be some in a building on the school grounds. Also they may still have some hostages. Hard to tell - the reports haven't had time to sort everything out yet, I imagine.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

There is a report here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624024.stm
that is the latest news that I've recieved.

[BeardofPants]

I was watching this last night as happened live on cnn.... but it was just horrible, both the acts of terrorism, AND the media frenzy.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But I think that they had to storm the building in the end. I mena there was aparantly 1500 hostages in there, they couldn't stand by and watch.

[BeardofPants]

Eh? Did I say that they shouldn't've?

[Falagar]

Last I heard there were only 75 dead...or perhaps it was 75 children. Or perhaps I misinterpreted something. Perhaps it was old news. Whatever the case this is an incredible tragedy. And the worst is, this is only one of many tragic incidents lately...

[Hawklan]

What kind of world do we live in ? I really do despair sometimes. Those poor children and their poor parents ...how can terrorists of this ilk live with themselves...to a certain extent, military and political targets I can understand ( but not agree with ) but not kids..never kids. My thoughts and love go to the victims and their families..I really cant understand the world today, I really do despair.

[jerseydevil]

There is an organization which is taking donations for the victims of this barbaric act. I have placed a banner on my Twin Towers Memorial website so I can take donations for them. Usually my website gets a huge spike in visitors at this time. I found organization on the main page of the Russian Embassy website - so I am assuming they are legitimate. I was planning on writing a letter of support to Russia - and felt this might help more. I will most likely still write a letter though.

[Grey_Wolf]

The Primary reason for the Second Chechian War was that Yeltsin wanted to consolidate his powerbase and with this war direct the Russian people's eyes elsewhere. And the Russians, of course, didn't want Great Russia to break up in small clan-lead pieces by letting Chechya get it's independence.

[Fat middle]

I feel very shocked with all this... It has been terrible. It seems that there are no stop for the atrocities we're seeing these las t years. Are we never going to learn?

[Grey_Wolf]

There's no WE about (that is if we're still discussing the Russian's vs Chechian's behaviour).

It is the Russian Government which is the root cause of this conflict.