Debating the use of certain Entmoot messages on Aldesign's website

[aldesign]

Well dath, POWER TO THE PEOPLE HAS PREVALED

cos thanks to permission to all of the writers, i have spent the last month cleaning it up and designing the website

and it is now up in full bloom, and even you Dath, will admit it whoops the pants off the look and quality of the Rivendale section.

Anyway its been so edited and changed since it was here, that its a completely new format and quality.

You dont beleive me? then gogogogogog to.....

... www.fotmb.bravepages.com


Cheers to
Ferraway Hawkbriar
FrodoFreind
Rogue Elf
and the rest of the writers and comtributers to the push for this website

ALL GO AND ENJOY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jerseydevil]

I like it - it looks cool.

Tater - the story isn't being removed from Entmoot - it'll be there as long as the thread is kept active. The writers do have a right to copy it and do whatever they want with it. Aldesign even included a link back to Entmoot. I can't see why such a big deal is being made over such a small thing.

Hopefully Book 2 will be up soon - so people can read the dramatic conclusion.

[bropous]

Okay, okay, I have been working for attorneys for too GD long....

Folks, the agreement we ALL "signed" to allow us to post on the Moot is valid. The agreement is an out-and-out contract to use the service and agreeing to abide by the rules. One of the rules is that content posted on the boards is the property of the boards. We entered the contract willingly, without duress, and the boardship has definitely given proper legal notice as to the status of the material we post on the boards.

The only people which the contract does NOT effect are minors, who cannot legally enter into a contract, and towards whom, in a court of law, a contract cannot be held legally binding. That is the only way out.

I've got no problem, actually, with "my" creation being included on the new web page, but if the Admins prefer that material remain within the domain of Entmoot, we should respect that request. This board is here due to the hard work of the Admins, this IS their "baby", so to speak, and we should abide by their desires on this issue.

I don't think anyone was trying to be rude by posting the never-ending story on another site, nor do I think anyone is really ready to turn this into a huge battle for rights over creativity. Maybe the best solution here is to simply agree to post the material in the "Rivendell" section, and let this tempest in a teapot settle.

[jerseydevil]

Yeah right. It's their creation - Entmoot just allows for ideas to be posted. What I type here - I can include in another board or include in my own websites, as long as I am not stealing any of Tater's, Ben's or anyone else's hard work.

It's like claiming that because you write something in a notebook - it becomes the notebook manufacturer's property. Contract or no contract there was no compensation for the writings. Just like everyone that has stuff on the Rivendell page can come back and say - "I want that removed", unless Tolkien Trail bought it.

The issue with the whole Messageboardship would never hold up in a court of law. I've encountered a lot of contracts that lawyers say are laughable and this is one of them. Anyway - it's a nonissue. It's not like this is going to be taken to court. And anyway, as you pointed out, people who are underage can not enter into contracts. All the writers, except yourself, are underage.

Why should the people that worked hard on the story just give up their work? The Thread is still there, it hasn't been removed.

Bropous - you fold too easily. And yes - Tolkien Trail is the hard work of Ben and Tater and the other admins, but the story was the hard work of the writers and has nothing to do with Entmoot. It just happened to be written and developed in an Entmoot Thread - just as if it was written in a notebook.

[Feraway Hawkbriar]

Most of the main writers ARE minors (RE,FF, Sam, were the main writers) you , Bropous, I beleive wrote some, but not a huge amounts and of what parts I'm not sure. simple solution to that would be for you to re-write those parts differently and elswere then send them to Aldesign. (but then again you prolly have better things to do, adults generally do.)

to reveiw:

Further discussion tho really is of really no point since Aldesign is NOT going to take down that website whatver is said.

Persueing this in court would be- a waste of time, Money and would be absolutly rediculous.

There is no way in H*** that you are going to get RE,FF and Sam togive up their story, and you couldnt anyway because they are minors.

The writeing belongs to the writers END OF STORY.

[samwise of the shire]

If I remeber correctly we as authors gave Aldesign PERMISSION to use our material on a website of his own. And as Feraway said you did not contribute material to the thread and so I think that we authors should have the right to say where the thread should go. I dont not mean to be rude and if I come across as such I'm sorry but I think that we as the authors should have some permament say in this as wether we want Tolkien Trail to use it or not. I'm gonna discuss it with my fellow hobbits. Please excuse me once again if I seem abrupt.
Sincerely
Samwise of the shire

[Darth Tater]

aldesign, your rude comments aside, what you're doing is not ok. Do I mind you putting the page together? No. But when it is done you should submit it to Rivendell, not host it as your own. bropous obviously knows more about legal matters then I do, and what he said makes sense. And using that minors loophole, well that's just plain rude and I think you know that. I found it a bit offensive when you took the content Ben and I created to "redesign" our site, but this is a thousand times worse. So yeah, put the page together, but submit it to Rivendell, don't make it part of a website of your own.

[jerseydevil]

I would like to know why it should be submitted to Rivendell since it is their work. Why can't they host it on their own sites since it is their hard work that went into the story and design?

I agree - taking artwork and stuff off of Tolkien Trail that others had done would be wrong. I disagree that taking something that the writers worked hard on and doing what they want is a thousand times worse than taking the Tolkien Trail stuff (that you and Ben created) and recreating another website from it.

Why should Aldesign or anyone go through the trouble of formatting the thread so it can be posted in Rivendell? It isn't even the thread, it's just the reformatted story. Feraway also put a lot of work into the pictures and I know that she will not include those in Rivendell.

[bropous]

Feraway, I only wrote one "chapter", Chapter 3, renamed "Intervention of Bropous". Others wrote the remainder, and darned clever writing it was, too.

As for "no compensation for the writings", actually, there is. The legal term for that aspect of a contract is not "compensation", but "consideration". "Consideration" can be money, payment in kind or in services. Payment in services is what we have here between the two parties.

In exchange for adhering to the rules, we are allowed to post here and get a world stage for our own opinions. Actually I think it's a great service tater and ben provide all of us, and we are not charged, folks. Free. Gratis. Lagniappe. I do believe we can at least accede to the wishes of the Administrators on this issue.

I only played a small part in the whole thing, and as for me, I'm not really all that concerned with where it is posted, but out of respect for the Admins, I say post a copy of the site to Rivendell and be done with it. In no way are ben or tater being unreasonable. Heck, if I worked as hard to create something like the Moot as they did I'd probably guard it pretty close, too. I might even think it rude if someone took my content, reformatted it, then told me they could redesign my site better than I.

All in all, it is a good lesson to actually READ those "agreements" we make from time to time on the Web. These agreements HAVE been upheld in courts, but of course, beyond a shadow of a doubt, this issue would never rise to that level.

As for "folding too easily", jerseydevil, let's just say I pick and choose those battles I have a chance to win. I think the admins are in the right here.

This kind of reminds me of the Tolkien family being ticked that the film of LotR was being made, when Tolkien had sold the film rights in the late 1960s for $14,000 US. Yes, the writings belong to the writer, until the writer abrogates that ownership through an agreement entered into without duress and carried out properly. We get to post here, and that is our "payment".

I think the whole "what would you do if..." thread was thoroughly entertaining, and I know a lot of work went into putting it all together on a site and assembling character sketches and artwork, etc. I just think it best to be good guests in the halls of our hosts and not make off with the flatware.

brollum! brollum!!

[samwise of the shire]

Maybe we could have a copy in Rivendell AND on Aldesigns website. What's wrong with that? Why not have it in two places at once? Still Borpous you DID write in the story and that makes you an author whether or not you were thouroughly involved or not. Personally I thik we should let Aldesign have his website and maybe advertise TT on it so those who see it can come here. And when are you goin' to be updating Tolkientrail anyway?We need a new words search and Mad Libs.
Sam

[bropous]

Mad Libs? Nah, I get enough of that junk on C-SPAN!

[samwise of the shire]

Oh and a new picture in the concentration game and maybe a new topic for the hangman. That's allthat NEEDS to be upodated, other than that it's goin' good.
Oh another thing like I said we gave our permission to Aldesign and we kind of made a deal with him. We shouldn't break that. We gave Aldesign permission to make his own website with our story on it. Doesn't that account for anything?We want our material on the web and I dont think that that shoud be over ridden. Wait, the WYYD thread wasn't actually SUBMITTED into Tolkien Trail, so it shouldn't count as actually being OWNED by Tolkien Trail and CO. So we should still be able to do what we want with it...Right Bro?
Just wondering
Sam

[jerseydevil]

Well I know none of us are giving up on this issue. So it's a mute point all around then.

[aldesign]

dudes, this was a research thread

all my official Points of View and replys are on the FOTMB thread in the Movies Forum.

thanks


Darth, sorry to u, make shure u read it.

Bropous, ur meant to be on our side. But i must respect the authors view (your views), and i will remove ur chapter if asked.

Cheers Feraway, Jersey, FrodoFriend, U all rule, thanks for fighting with me, as i wasnt online when all this burst out.

[Rána Eressëa]

Ahem...I would like to know what's going on here.

First of all, Darth Tater, why are you calling us rude? Maybe you should check up on yourself: you are trying to control our actions over our own intellectual property and are, in a way, trying to "steal" it. I believe that says something very profound about you. Please do not lecture me on "rudeness", and please start practicing what you preach. I'm not trying to start anything, but you are making a big deal out of something that is stupid -- why do you even want it? Honestly? Why do you want it?

As for that contract, true, is has no holds on minors, which are people below the age of 16, correct? Let's look at all the authors' ages:

FrodoFriend: 15
samwise of the shire: 14
Rogue Elf: 15
Wayfarer: 15
bropous: definitely not a minor, but only wrote one chapter

That, I believe is all the authors (up until the last chapter "microwave of doom"), right? I hope I didn't leave anyone out. So, techniquely, we are ALL minors (excluding bropous), therefore the contract has "no holds" on us. Therefore, we have the right to do with it as we please.


P.S. -- CardenIAntauraNauco wrote that little "meeting with gandalf", not Tesseract12, and it doesn't make much sense for the story, I don't know whether you're leaving it in or not, though.

[Rána Eressëa]

Yes, I just skimmed through the entire "What Would You Do" thread, and that is all of the authors by the end of "Microwave of Doom". All, might I add, but one, who are minors. And the one that isn't only wrote one chapter. Do you want to keep that one chapter?

[aldesign]

cheers Rogue Elf for ur Support


and yeah the link isnt working cos i used up all the bandwidth this morning, when i uploaded everything over and over again, cos it kept crashing,
so it should be alright tomorrow.


i will look into other servers asasp

[Laurelyn]

Alright, I'll check it out tomorrow then.

Y'know, I just went and read the "Entmoot Rules" thing up in where someone would register, and it says nothing whatsoever about thing that one can do with things that are posted on this board.
So that could very well mean that if someone has the permission of the folkies who wrote the content that they want to do stuff with, then someone can set up a website. Anyways, Aldesign . . . you could just give the Tolkien Trail a link to your site to put in Rivendell. And you could link them onto your site. Would everybody be happy then?

[aldesign]

Originally posted by Arathorn
IMHO, it would be a lot more fun for everyone concerned to post credit where credit is due on their site and possibly add an "affiliated with" link or something to that effect. But you've gotta talk about the details. How's that for a "can't we all get along" line, heheh.

I already took this into account when i created the site
(but well done for bringing it up Arathorn)

its littered with Mentions of Entmoot, and a nice linky button the the left hand side of EVERY PAGE!.

pluse entmoot are on the bottom of every page in the small print,
and... they are on the credits page.

i think thats enough, dont u?

[Darth Tater]

Folks, from the credits page: "All content is copyright (c) 1997-2001, The Tolkien Trail." This is part of the Tolkien Trail. All content here is technically ours. Do I have a problem with aldesign writing the code for this page of yours? No. You folks obviously want him to. However, I think it only fair that, instead of hosting it at his own website, which he could potentially make money off of, he hosts those pages in our Rivendell section. They would use our bandwidth and space, so that solves those problems for you! We just want to keep the content here on the site, and not send people away to other pages.