10-15-2003, 02:03 PM | #21 | |
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10-15-2003, 02:05 PM | #22 | |
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10-15-2003, 02:08 PM | #23 | |
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In spite of all the acknowledgements that we don't want to generalise about this group, we go ahead and do it anyway. It's understandable to fear an unknown group, but we must be really conscious of this irrational fear and guard against it. The comments people have made about personal contact they've had with Muslims shows that the way forward is to break down barriers, not reinforce them. Last edited by The Gaffer : 10-15-2003 at 02:09 PM. |
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10-15-2003, 02:30 PM | #24 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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10-15-2003, 02:37 PM | #25 |
Elf Lord
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My point was that our (Western) support for the Saudi government has been entirely expedient and materialistic.
Again, we're getting mixed up: - Saudi government - people who support 9/11 terrorists - muslims These are DIFFERENT from one another, just as Hitler was from Einstein, or George Bush from Jacques Chirac. |
10-15-2003, 03:31 PM | #26 | |
im quite stupid
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I know in America you have a big problem with Mexicans entering the country but here we have a lot of Asians trying to gain access to this country. Now what the main issue i think with Muslim in particualr entering this country is that they like to stick together. Bradford for example is an allmost completly Asian town now! I live in cumbria again and from people i come into contact with i am seeing a lot of hate and racism (they all smell of curry etc) people say 'muslim' and they seem to think dirty paki and trouble maker. Now the west cumbrians are an inbread bunch at the best of times but i see this all over the country i think its worrying! The news has also started running a lot of what i would say 'arnt muslims a bit backward stories'! For example they were running an honor killing stroty roight where a muslim man had married his cousin on the day of her wedding because the man she was marring was not a blood realtive'! Forget 9/11 etc are muslims getting dragged down by a combination of some people in there religions actions and the media?
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10-15-2003, 04:04 PM | #27 |
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I'm sorry to post slightly off topic, but had to comment on the "right to wear what you want to work." That really gets into the area of the right of a private company to enforce a dress code (of course government jobs would be different, they must allow it unless it physically interferes with the duties involved). But should a private company be forced to allow someone to wear something that the company doesn't want them to? To me, that is taking away freedom of one in favor of another.
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10-15-2003, 04:17 PM | #28 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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On 4th of July I was at Liberty State Park - there was this black boy trying to fly a kite. A middle eastern person came over to him to help him out and then a white guy came over to help them. These were complete strangers there to watch NJ's fireworks to celebrate America's 4th of July. That is what America is about and it made me glad that people are really like that here. Now in the midwest - things are different. I worked with someone who is black and we are friends. She nolongeer works where we used to work and I asked her why. She said she got tired of the death threats and stuff. I asked her why death threats - she said for being a black woman. I told her - "oh yeah - I forgot - you live in the 50's here". She said - "the early 50's". But that still goes on in the midwest. People there complain about the Mexican's coming in - but they had no problem when Aisan built a huge plant there - then they went out of their way to welcome the Japanese. They even offered japanese language lessons and stuff - if you see the movie Gung Ho you'd know exactly what Seymour Indiana is like and how they reacted when Aisan moved in. Quote:
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10-15-2003, 04:21 PM | #29 |
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If a person dresses a particular way for religious reasons - and it doesn't interfere with their work - and is appropriately modest (and perhaps I'd add another caveat or two if I spent more time thinking them up) it seems reasonable to me that employers should be accommodating.
Hey - I think I just made "Enting"!! I've been "made"! |
10-15-2003, 04:34 PM | #30 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Note Jonathan: This is my 5000th post.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-15-2003 at 04:35 PM. |
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10-15-2003, 05:22 PM | #31 | |
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And great story about the Florida drivers' license!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-15-2003, 05:32 PM | #32 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-15-2003 at 05:33 PM. |
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10-15-2003, 08:09 PM | #33 |
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To be perfectly honest, I don't think I know any Muslims. And I don't know where any mosques are, so I haven't had any personal experiences with the religion of Islam.
Edit: this is my 2000th post. Go me.
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10-15-2003, 08:54 PM | #34 | |
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Re: Muslims
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Sorry everyone, especcially Muslims. ---- ---- Concerning /actual/ discrimination towards Muslims, I know it's a problem. On 9/11, a man drove his car into a gas station about 7 blocks from my house and asked the attendant (who had dark skin and a slight beard) "Are you Muslim." When he replied "no," the guy said, "Good, because if you were, I would have stabbed you." And he showed him the knife. My friend's dad owns that gas station too, so this was a good guy. But, I also heard about a small celebration party that some Muslims held in my town as news of the Twin Towers collapse was being televised. I'm not sure if this is true or not; it sounds like an easy rumor to me. But the fact is everyone definately /is/ different, and they all think and operate individually so no one should seriously judge a race or religion. Besides, that's the attitude involved with Al Quida: that all Americans are the same and the suck and should die. ---- ---- Again, I'm truly sorry to have offended anyone.
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 10-15-2003 at 09:04 PM. |
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10-15-2003, 09:02 PM | #35 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-15-2003, 10:14 PM | #36 |
The Black Númenórean
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May a 'middle easterner' get a word in here, if its not to much to ask? First of all, I am an Iranian born and raised girl. I lived in Canada, then the US (and i am very proud of my people and my country). I have been watching this thing grow and i have just been thinking about it and waiting for a time to respond. I think now is fine.
The whole "middle east" is still a HUGE thing to be calling a problem affected area. Same with "Muslims", there are 1.4 billion of them on this world. The ones in south east asia have nothin to do with those in Tajikestan or Kabul. they have totally different values. But given they do have some of the same common ground. Hell, even those musilms in the "middle east" have different customs and beliefs. For example lets take a look at Iraq, a small country relativley speaking, in the middle east. I can name about 4 different sub groups off the top of my head. We have the Sunni branch of Islam, We have the Shi'te branch of Islam. Those are the mainstream, then we have the the orthodox sects of those two branches. All of them have different beleifs that share only some things in common. Now, lets talk about who practices those Sub-religions, you have the Kurds in Northern Iraq, who practice their own style of Sh'ite-ism then you have the Arabs who are mostly Sunni but a few that are Shi'te. Now, lets take a close look at how the factions relate to each other. The Shi'te and the Sunni HATE each other as Shi'te is considered to be a broken off and traitorus to Islam on the count of its founder Imam Ali*. Then the Arabs Hate the Kurds. A closeer look at the Kurds. Not only do they have a little blood fued with the Arabs but they have their own little internal struggle between the Shi'te and Sunni!! Christ! all of that struggle going on in this dinky, war torn little place! How can you say that they all would like to see us dead? Many of them have their own problems to deal with. "And as for I think for what has happened in the middle east and on 9/11 - teh US has been MORE than understandable and accepting. The Middle East is far less understanding of our way of life. The fanatical clerics preach hatred. In London there is a muslim group who is posting flyers all over the place praising the 19 9/11 hijackers 0 which to me is sick. We don't have parades in the street when innocent people are killed. That goes on repeatedly in the middle east." That is also a very rare faction too, and i can think of when the Ku Klux Klan marched on washington too in response. Were they the mainstream americans? did every one share their beleifs? And as for: "The 1993 Twin Towers bombing was organized in Jersey City. I am dreading the moment when they start bombing our grocery stores and our movie theaters and restaurants. Maybe it won't happen - but I think eventually it will - unless a change is made in their attitude toward other people and races." What about the Iran-Iraq war? Do you know what it is really like to have your house, family, neighborhood, country BOMBED WITH CHEMICAL WEAPONS AND MISSLES FOR EIGHT YEARS AND HAVE MILLIONS OF YOUR COUNTRYMEN AND FAMILY MEMBERS DIE?? I pray to god that you will never, ever have to witness that evil, horrid type of thing. I would never wish that on you or anyone else. And you say you are scared after one day? Then i have every righ to fear USA, RUSSIA, BRITAIN, FRANCE AND A WHOLE SLEW OF OTHERS for giving the Iraqi regime those weapons and the support to kill my countrymen. But you might say "ah, but those weapons were meant to stop the radical regime in your country." well, after all that they are still there. doesnt seem to have accompished much now does it? Save killing a whole bunch of innocent people trying to save the LAND they love, not the Bastards sitting in power. And setting up a fanatical fruit cake that will cause his own people and others MUCH grief. And as for the House of the Saud...what can i say? Sh*t floats. i have an interesting arcticle in the Atlantic Monthly about it here in the may 2003 issue. it isnt avalible online but you could buy and read it..its very interesting to say the least. *WHEW!* ANd on some things i agree, like the whole photo Id thing. That was just plain funny. And by the way, the verdict came out against the woman, she had to take it off if she wanted her drivers license... *(I forget his rightful title that is what most people call him, although he was an Imam as well, he grew in rank because he married Muhammed's first daughter to forge political ties between the two families.)
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. Last edited by The last sane person : 10-15-2003 at 10:45 PM. |
10-15-2003, 10:41 PM | #37 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Well it's good to find out that we have a Middle Eastern person here. Maybe you can bring another side to the discussion.
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As for the war between Iran and Iraq that is true - we did support Iraq - but Iran was getting it's support from the Soviet Union. Techinically the US was supplying both sides - Iran AND Iraq - becuase we did not want one side getting the upper hand over the other. If either side won, it would have destabilized the region . Granted it it wasn't the most humanitarian thing to do - but can you tell me how many humanitarian things the governments of Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon and other countries in the region have done? Have they reached out to other faiths and races like the western world has? Are they accepting of our rights and beliefs there? My brother was stationed in Bahrain - and he did say they were very nice and he did enjoy Bahrain. He was there during 9/11.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-15-2003 at 10:47 PM. |
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10-16-2003, 01:27 AM | #38 |
The Black Númenórean
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I know you werent being snide. I left as not to be blown up by a missle. Unfortunaltly the rest of my family (exculding my mother father and brothers) are still there and are right now terrified of having the same thing happen all over again this time with the US.
And it is a perfectly legit fear as such the US is right next door. As for the fear, that means i have very legit reasons too, but i dont live in fear that they who have the power to hurt me will not, because, the country i live in now has the power to strick back, hard. But, if i lived back home, and couldnt get away from imminent hostilities i would be pretty damn scared right now since they have no way to strike back if they are attacked. You should have no fear of the average shmuk walking down the street who has darker skin than you. And if they were all bent on killing you, you would have been dead by now. So now worries there. If a guy wanted to blow up the seven elven he wouldnt walz in there, buy a coke then leave. No- you dont see Americans dancing in the street, you see them glued to the TV set and cheering when the bombs fell on Iraq. ( I was witness to that seen myself in a local pub). As for the palestinians....Well, that is a different cake altogether. Since they have no military-or real weapons- to take on anything, they go with the only opption they have. To strap a home made bomb and kill themselves along with the Isrealites. but you said you dont understand why they do that... take a look at the average Palestinian situation, they are poor, treated as second class citizens, live in poverty and fear that Israeli bulldozer is going to come and tear down their home, mosque, village and put up a settlement. They fear the Soldiers with their American issued gear coming in and killing their fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters and loved ones. They have no voice, and when they do speak they are overshadowed by "the terrorist threat" and the jewish state that wishes to expand and in essence boot them out and claim it all for themselves. As such when they see those that are around them die and they themselves reduced to sub par living in a place that doesnt recognize them, why bother living? Why let those that kill your women and children, disgrace your religion and integraty as a human get away scott free with your land and life blood? I would, should i ever be reduced to such a state (God forbid!) would as such do as that Palestinian lawyer did. Strap a bomb on me, plant myself next to my aggressor and blow myself sky high. And arent the children in that "refugee" camp that the Israeli army pumped missles into, innocent too? what about them? If that isnt true as Israel claims, then why has Israel Point blank refused Nato to come and investigate the area? A buncha nutcases that commited that evil act on 9/11 caused this country to unite and then call for arms against a common enemy, cant that too be applied? or is just unacceptable because they dont have the means to go about it without all the high tech gadgetry and their own flag? As for the changes, what do you mean? go to Iran and you will see that it really isnt as horrid as it has been portrayed. you can walk safely at nights on the street, very much so infact, talk with the people and have a nice time at the little cafes and what have you. i heard someone say about 'acid being thrown in womens face' adn what have you. maybe in Sudan or some REALLY third world place *cough*or saudi arabia *cough* that would happen, btu again you use the brush of "MIDDLE EAST" again. Isnt Turkey part of that circle? (even thoughis is close to europe it still has been classified as middle east) they are quite prgressive and up to date. Lebenon? they have a nice system too. The whole Humanitarian thing is pretty simple. How can you help anyone out of their problems when you are broke, near economic collapse, in debt after a war that was kinda foisted on you and just had your major money making facilities bombed to hell? Does it matter what the Governments of a country do? Reach out to different faiths, well, if you go pretty much anywhere in Iran (i use this because this is what i am familiar with) and say 'i am an American and Christian, how do you do?' you will be greeted with much friendship and kindness. and you will have your rights respected. they wont force a Qu'ran in your face and say 'WE ARE RIGHT YOU ARENT, BURN IN HELL YOU SINNER!' just like if you go to certain southern churches, the preachers will spill out that type of fire and brimstoen shanagans, but you arent going there to listen to that. Ah, yes, the Soviet union was there during Iran but rapidly imploding and yes they sent a few dilapitated tanks over but wanted our oil feilds in return so we told them to screw off. I dont think my uncle or cousins had any russians bneside them in the bunkers.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
10-16-2003, 02:00 AM | #39 | ||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-16-2003 at 02:08 AM. |
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10-16-2003, 02:00 AM | #40 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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I think you have a very good point when you say that there are many flavors of islam and that there are huge differences throughout the world on how people practise their religion. This however is generally not understood, at least not among europeans as I can tell. What we are exposed to through media is the islamic extremism. In the western media we generally only get to see a tiny part of the diversity that exists out there. The problem with Islam in a modern society is , as I see it, that they look upon the words in the Coran as coming directly from Allah, and therefore should be taken literally. It does not open up for interpretations, and it is difficult to adjust to changing times. BTW: I don't think this thread was meant to house a political discussion - again.
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