06-20-2004, 02:24 PM | #21 | |||||
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Quote:
But the question isn't whether the Valar succeeded in monopolizing all goodness for themselves, it's the fact that they seem to have tried. Let me make a rather dangerous parallell - Light. The Valar were entrusted with all of Arda. When they first entered it, they decided it needed light, and set up the two lamps, which would illuminate the entire world. Melkor foiled that plan, so their next recourse was the two trees - however, this time they only bothered to light the very small portion of the world where they were staying, and (If I remember aright) only the loud insistance of certain parties kept them from completely shutting that light off from the rest of the world. Of course, the third time they got it right, with the Sun and the Moon which gave light to everyone in more or less equal share. I see a rough trend towards the same thing in terms of goodness. Like so: The valar were charged with making the world good. At first, they were out and about, hard at work with the task - the Spring of Arda. When Melkor started to cause trouble, they ran away and hid in Valinor - now almost all of their efforts, all of their work, seems to be concentrated on that one area. So, when the elves awoke their first action was to drag them all to valinor. I do not think this is right. Why did the valar not come out into middle earth and make it as beautiful as they had made Valinor? Is it not their responsibility and the Elves' birthright? Quote:
"Hey! Come deal with these kids of yours!" "Um, yeah... I know we /said/ we'd watch them, but they're getting out of hand, so if you could just step in..." ];-) I see it as a difference in approach between the Valar and Eru. The Valar pussyfooted around and dithered, letting evil get a foothold, because they didn't want to hurt their friends and they didn't fully understand the depth of the evil that had taken them. Eru, on the other hand, knows all. He steps in and takes action because he knows it's nescessary. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 06-20-2004 at 02:35 PM. |
|||||
06-20-2004, 02:39 PM | #22 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
I agree with you, Wayfarer. But I don't think that the Valar were actually defensive in attitude or anything. I think that they prefered to stay in Valinor and let things in Middle-Earth run themselves because of the Music of the Ainur. When they sang and Melkor ruined the song, Eru explained to the rest of the Ainur that He is to derive more good of the evil that Melkor wrought. (Like when he explains to them that Melkor's invention of clouds would bring about rain to refresh the earth). So, the Valar knew well the importance of Morgoth to the fate of Arda and feared (IMO) to interfere with the plans of Eru. As to why they called on Eru during the Ar Pharazon campaign, I guess it's just as you said: "take care of your children, they've done it this time!"
|
06-21-2004, 10:47 AM | #23 | |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
|
Quote:
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
|
06-21-2004, 11:30 AM | #24 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
But it makes no sense...what would the Valar have to fear? They're immortal after all; and you'd guess they're not subject to pain or illness, either. So why be defensive?
|
06-21-2004, 11:58 AM | #25 | |||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
|||
06-21-2004, 04:29 PM | #26 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
So let me get this straight; Tolkien first condemned the Valar's actions and then he came to accept it and gave up on the idea of condemning them as "fainéant". Right?
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post these quotes, Maedhros; they were truly enlightening |
06-23-2004, 10:26 PM | #27 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Since I can't remember offhand what fainéant means, I'm looking it up.
Fainéant (From the French) adj - Given to doing nothing; idle. (lazy) n. - An irresponsible idler; a sluggard. Okay. It seems that tolkien was accusing the Valar of... well, of shirking their duty. So the answer to Valandil's question is 'Yes, at least in the initial conception' Now, since their overall behavior changes very little, I think it stands to reason that Tolkien either a. decided their behavior wasn't so bad after all (which I think is unlikely) or b. Decided to make the condemnation more subtle and less implied. It also might have something to do with the framework of the Silmarillion - the elven 'authors' of that work might not have been informed of any dissent by the valar, or of any debate that might have gone on, and only been told of the end result - the Hiding of Valinor.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
a Silmarillion movie? | Elvellon | The Silmarillion | 62 | 09-28-2002 06:57 PM |