12-19-2005, 11:24 PM | #21 |
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Holiday Menorahs :P I have no problem with calling Christmas trees Christmas trees -but people shouldn't get worked up at all about "Happy Holidays" - holidays, plural - not just Christmas.
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12-20-2005, 01:24 AM | #22 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(I'm following this thread and working on a post in my head - I never want to post hastily on threads like this, because I feel that the vultures are circling, as someone once said )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-20-2005, 05:50 AM | #23 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I'm wondering, is the Christmas - Holidays dispute an American thing or has it spread to elsewhere too? Please enlighten me.
The thing is, here the phrase "Happy Holidays" (prettige feestdagen) is (too my knowledge) pretty much as common as "Merry Christmas" and "Happy New Year". You see it on cards, shop windows and lighting quite often.
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12-20-2005, 06:07 AM | #24 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
*Grabs pitch fork ...* ...oh, ... sees Rian's post below .... oh well, don't be hasty ..that's always been MY motto You either value traditions and festivals - a mainstay OF culture - or you end up without one. and whilst this applies to all cultures - this valuing of diffrernt cultures is not achieved nor indeed in any way aided by destroying in the power of names, thoughts and iconography these traditions or festivals or their meaning to people generation on generation. Watering down all meaning and definitions into the lowest most insipid effectively meaningless phrases does nothing for this - and indeed we all know it is, as ever, merely the start of a road, not the end of it. now ..the more important question that has been bugging me and no one has been helpful enough to point out: what the hell does ACLU stand for??? ( i can think of course of, Anti Christmas Lunatic Union - but i suspect that is only partly right ) |
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12-20-2005, 07:41 AM | #25 |
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American Civil Liberties Union........ they fight for our civil liberties..
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
12-20-2005, 07:50 AM | #26 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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12-20-2005, 11:14 AM | #27 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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The History of Christmas
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there is nothing to lose, and a lot to gain, by thinking about the ideas behind the traditions, and not just the icons
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12-20-2005, 01:11 PM | #28 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-20-2005, 02:43 PM | #29 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 12-20-2005 at 02:44 PM. |
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12-20-2005, 03:39 PM | #30 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Another condescending, stereotyping view of Christians
"What is to be made of all this?" Another article that seems to promote the idea that all Christians have IQ's barely in the double-digit range. My main beef with the ACLU is that IMO, in many of their cases (note - not ALL) they act like bullies in support of bullies. If some people are truly traumatized by seeing a manger scene on public property in a country where over 90% of the people celebrate Christmas, then I think they need to get a real life. I think that the ACLU should spend their money for counseling for said person, instead of forcing said person's selfish, intolerant ways on a community by the threat of financial ruin through lawsuits. I think the ACLU started out with a good idea, but got perverted by their power, although again, I don't think ALL of their cases are wrong.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-20-2005 at 03:43 PM. |
12-20-2005, 03:53 PM | #31 | |
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all the ACLU does is give people a forum in which to address these kind of issues... whether they are real issue or not is for the courts to decide
they are often seen defending religious freedoms too (even christians! )... here's a recent example (full article here): Quote:
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12-20-2005, 03:55 PM | #32 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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It's not as simple as giving a forum - just the threat of a lawsuit, for some people without a mega-entity like the ACLU on their side, will make them cave, and I think that's bullying - it never even makes it to the courts.
Yes, I'm familiar with that case, and I think that Penecostal program is wrong to try to force people to "convert".
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-20-2005, 04:06 PM | #33 | |
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Quote:
sure, it can get rough at times... and sometimes they go to far... but, to preserve the country we love, we need people who are willing to put up a fight from time to time
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12-20-2005, 04:14 PM | #34 |
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IMO-it seems necessary to be obvious
They have a track record of very narrow ideology; including "God" in the Pledge, The Pledge of Alligiance itself,Ten Commandments displayed, etc. Most cases they get involved with reduce the freedoms Americans have expressed in word, action or deed and they do it under the cover of "we want less government"....(read: anarchy)
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12-20-2005, 04:26 PM | #35 |
Elf Lord
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HOOOOOOOOOOOBOY!
do i have a few things to say here: actually i'll lay down some some ground work before i pop off and get some smokes before i give up on friday - i'll be driving me Neice's to the barn - so i can't smoke - so i may as well give up before the new year anyway.... thus i intend to have a good smoke till then (stupid habit btw - so ridiculously STUPID it beggars beleif- but enjoyable if you are stressed - and my stress levels the last two or so weeks have been off the scale - but i digress ...) right .... i'll lay the groundwork for me stuff in a mo ... gotta go! (very quick summary else the whole post is pointless) : started off totally on-side with Rian ... learnt what ACCy thingy stands for (cheers, Saviour HOBBIT) and in a very generalised world view think it no bad thing: IN THEORY - also in a VERY generalised way tend generally to agree more with brownjenkin's world view - vaguely - as i can percieve it myself of course - SO: why do i have problems with what both of youse have written? .... to be continued ... best BB *slopes off into the cold night to get a smoke* |
12-20-2005, 04:48 PM | #36 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
they've even supported the rights of the KKK to demostrate... free speech can by scary... but the alternative is scarier
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12-20-2005, 04:56 PM | #37 |
Elf Lord
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well, i have only had a quick drag ...so i'll come back to me points when ihave had time "to think" ..but yes, though i have no time for the KKK ... in terms of civil liberties et al, they should be defended - at least in terms of rights and freedom of thought and expression.
IF one purportes to uphold the principles civil liberties...then one has to follow through on the core principles ..so good on 'em .... at least on the principle ... |
12-20-2005, 04:59 PM | #38 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think the case that really sent me over the edge with the ACLU was the one in Los Angeles, California, where they fought to get a tiny cross off the seal of the city of Los Angeles - a city whose very NAME translates into "The Angels", and in a state that has a huge tradition of missions. The cross is so tiny that I never even realized it was there! and the seal is dominated by a huge depiction of the GODDESS Pomona, which for some reason was NOT objected to Now the city has to spend prob. millions of dollars to eradicate all the teensy, tiny little crosses on their official seal - money that could be spent for things like, say, health care and education, schools, etc.
MAJOR
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-20-2005, 06:48 PM | #39 |
Elf Lord
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firstly, in general i have no problem with looking at things or questioning the historical evolution of christmas nor the quite plain and undisputable Christian hegemonic control historically regarding christianity and western society of the festivities .... but that is really neither here nor there to me in any great sense .. it is history and if anything gives a good view on our world ...
nor is it really suprising .... nor does that say it is not ok for christians AND non christians alike to enjoy the traditions and messages of christmas ... nor need it be exclusively religious .. nor for that matter exclusively commercial .... but to pick a fight on the words, culture, messages, iconography, meaning, spirit, and ultimately our much loved traditions of christmas ... is for me, ludricous, but worse ... totally meaningful ... i disagree with Rian, in so far as making this issue into a specifically religious one ... it goes way beyond that to my mind. Nor do i accept Bj's view that it is a defence of liberty ... how so? I generally stand FOR civil liberties: but how does this promote it? By attacking both secular AND religious freedom to respect your culture (whatever culture) that either just enjoys or takes other more faithful enjoyment out of christmas ??? ... be it a time to spend with family and relax, or to think on the beleif in your FREELY chosen God? This is freedom? there are times when in the name of liberty, libertarians appear more restrictive and totalitarian than anyone else .... this i feel is one. But Rian and brownjenkins - do not make this into a steroetype bashing exercise ... i say stand up for our civil liberties to enjoy our cultural festivals ... whether it is rian's christian christmas ... BJ's turkey and presents or Spock's festivus ... is this freedom? yes, it is freedom to question and debate .... but any organisation can and will be judged HOW and WHY they do so: is the ACLU serving ANYONE well here??? Nay. Socially, culturally, secularly AND religiously christmas means more than a holiday ... and if anything we stand up FOR our civil liberties by defending our right to our culture and traditions and way of life .... anyone that argues against our freedom to culture, history, beleif or sheer enjoyment can no longer claim ANY justifcation to stand on a platform of civil liberty. is it just words? Dare you tell me words and their meanings are so insipid and meaningless, SO powerless? Does it not go FAR beyond mere words? i say this in ending: IF words, and meanings are SO powerless and inconsequential: DO NOT REPLY HERE: WHAT IS THE POINT? this goes far beyond mere words or religion: it strikes home on the very concept of freedom: in this particular example i feel the ACLU shoot themsleves in the foot. best all : and happy christmas, BB |
12-21-2005, 04:29 AM | #40 | |
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The Church-and-State issue is not a factor because we have an established Church. |
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