01-17-2006, 12:07 PM | #21 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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kinda busy, but read this article lief... it gives some good insight into some of the ideas surrounding the force
obviously, interpretation is up to you... but saying that the force is "a good, personal, intelligent God with a will of its own." is very much your own personal interpretation
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01-17-2006, 01:46 PM | #22 |
Elf Lord
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Is there a blue moon out? I have to agree with BJ on this one, Lief. The Force is impersonal - or so I have thought since the 1970's.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-17-2006, 02:55 PM | #23 |
Quasi Evil
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Ive always thought of the force as equal parts spiritual and equal parts physics. I was slightly disappointed when Lucas chose to flesh it out to the midi-chlorian level. Did we really need that? To me it was sort of this ‘spiritual gravity’ if you will. That worked fine. Now it has a physiological root and I dont know if that works as well for me.
Furthermore, I dont even know if its consistent with the original three Star Wars films. Remember, Lucas reinterpreted stuff or just added stuff to the episodes one through three that werent necessarily factored in for the original episodes (4 through 6). So Lief I dont know how far you can get trying to use single item quote logic to prove things about your interpretation of religion in the films. First off, what the characters say about the force in the movie is only THEIR interpretation. And like a witch doctor or a shaman or a priest in the end it’s a mortal with incomplete knowledge trying to explain something that is most likely more profound then they can grasp. So everything they say shouldn’t be taken literally just as everything an Indian says about the ‘the great god in the sky’ shouldnt be. Secondly, and most importantly… the films just werent 100% consistent. But they were close enough that you can use your own imagination and your own rational to bridge things nicely. Thats how it worked for me. I made a seamless universe out of Star Wars (as I did out of Tolkiens works) and yet when I tell people about my interpretations some people are shocked. And maybe thats how it should work considering Lucas's words as brownj posted.
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01-17-2006, 04:15 PM | #24 | ||||
Elf Lord
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I know that this is my interpretation. I'm curious how other interpretations might jive with the quotes I've presented from the movies. Quote:
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For example, if George Lucas wanted to show that there are many interpretations of the Force that might be right, he would have purposely constructed divergent Jedi philosophies about the Force in his movies. Instead, he constructs one Jedi philosophy and never has any philosophical debate except the blatantly black and white one between the Sith and Jedi. There is no plausible counter state-of-reality to the one good guy philosophy presented in the movie, so there is no reason to believe Lucas didn't mean the Jedi to be right. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-17-2006, 07:08 PM | #25 |
Elf Lord
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Hey, Lief, I am old and so are my memories of SW. In fact, one could argue that mine are the more correct because closer to the source. What Lucas has done is either validly explored the record and augmented it with time (as say, St John versus St Mark in the Gospels) or some stranger has elucidated the movies to make his or her own points (as per radical critiques of the NT.)
See, the critique crap can be fun when applied to living authors or filmmakers because THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING WHEN THEY DID IT! Don't you just love it?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-17-2006, 11:03 PM | #26 | ||
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Lief- you rock and everything man, but analogy can be carried only so far IMO. I love starwars , see the movies annually, play the video games, and granted there are spiritual similarities, but the force cannot compare to my personal God.
That being said isn't it cool how all of our imagninations work on the same story, we all have a different idea of the SW universe in our head.
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01-17-2006, 11:23 PM | #27 | |
Elf Lord
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1) This "God", the Force, does not send its "son" to die for our sins and save humanity through his resurrection. 2) This "God", the Force, does not transform its followers and make them righteous . . . so far as I know. Rather, seem to become good through more of a Buddhist path, a path to goodness or "enlightenment," or whatever, which one pursues on one's own. There doubtless are other important differences between Yahweh and the Force. You're absolutely right that the analogy can only be carried so far.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-17-2006, 11:44 PM | #28 | ||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
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great cool, Like I said you totally own I guess we agree, now for philosophy, what does the force think of people like Han Solo who are like SW agnostics and don't believe in the force....
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01-18-2006, 12:42 AM | #29 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-18-2006, 12:55 PM | #30 |
Elf Lord
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But is death an illusion like personality?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-18-2006, 03:05 PM | #31 | |||
Quasi Evil
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But my point is that if as you say there are inconsistent parts to the film and parts that were just added without originally being fleshed out in previous movies at all then how can you categorically state that inconsistencies are irrelevant to this one aspect of the movie. If you can fudge on page 1 you can fudge on page 100 lief. Don’t always arbitrarily expect things to add up perfectly. Especially perfectly and coincidently exactly as you had in mind. But like I said he gives us enough that we as imaginative semi intelligent beings can bridge the gaps with our own thoughts and own interpretations and it makes complete and perfect sense to us. And again THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. THIS is the sign of GOOD art. I don’t want to be bludgeoned over the head with a bible or a blue print when Im watching art. At some point you always get yourself into the scaffolding of that world that was never fleshed out. Declaring ‘this is how it is meant!’ is rather pointless to me. And short sighted. Declaring ‘this is how I fill in the gaps’ is wonderfully sublime however.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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01-18-2006, 03:18 PM | #32 | ||
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good expression there IR "filling in the gaps" I think thats what is so amazing about or imaginations, majorly cool if you think about it.
inked- what are you talking about? I suppose on the internet the concept of a personality is somewhat illusory,but how do go from that to death?....unless your brain suddenly had a powersurge and you never recover *thinks philospically that black is white and white is black and is run over at the next zebra crossing* AGGG its got me *dies*
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01-18-2006, 04:24 PM | #33 |
Elf Lord
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rTr, I was referring to the buddhist like background of BJ's frame of reference.
If all is illusion, there is no death, no personality, no world, no food, no rTr!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-18-2006, 04:39 PM | #34 | ||
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Oh ok gee
thats a bit depressing....
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I was Press Secretary for the Berlioz administration and also, but not limited to, owner and co operator of fully armed and operational battle station EDDIE Quote:
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01-18-2006, 10:34 PM | #35 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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However, if the lightning comes hailing down on the natives' enemies, the author is making a point about the phenomenon rather than the people. Also, if lightning comes hailing down on peoples' enemies and afterward the natives talk about why this occurred, their interpretation generally is the accurate one that the author had in mind as correct. Authors try to present truths about their world through characters. George Lucas was doing just that. I think you're connecting his work too much to reality, and not looking enough from Lucas' perspective. Authors like to present the facts about their world. If, instead, they are making points about the people, then they make that clear too. George Lucas was not making any claim that there are differences of philosophy among the Jedi. Rather, they are presented as the pinnacle of knowledge and the Sith as the perversion and the lie. George Lucas' world is a world of absolutes, of blatant good against blatant evil, with little gray area. In the same way, you are presented with truth and lie. George Lucas wasn't going for the realism that you think he is, when you think he's created a world where the everyone is a simple human guessing about the nature of the Force. Rather, Lucas presents what he intends as truth about the Force through his wise Jedi mythological mentor figures. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-18-2006 at 10:35 PM. |
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01-19-2006, 03:40 PM | #36 | ||||||||
Quasi Evil
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George Lucas was going for a MYTH that reflects REALITY is a much safer statement to make I think. And in that case I don’t see any problem with the main characters not being fully fluent or fully understanding of the entire scope of the spiritual forces in their universe. Again… take from it what you will. But don’t declare THIS is the one and ONLY way it is meant to be. That’s always the easy mistake to make when dealing with art like this. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-05-2009, 03:49 AM | #37 |
Elven Warrior
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Here is a really fascinating entry at Wookiepedia that describes that many different philosophies of the Force, including the Living Force, the Unifying Force, The Dark Side of the Force and the Potentium Force. I don't know how much of this is official, but it is very interesting none-the-less and helps clarify where different people stand on the Force. I like the vague vision of the Force best because it allows us to have fun debates like this, and makes for an interesting theme in the Star Wars universe itself concerning the nature of the Force. Even to them it seems a bit mysterious, and I like that. Anyway, here is the post.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_force Wookiepedia is a pretty cool resource. Much more in-depth than Wikipedia concerning Star Wars matters.
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05-13-2010, 09:33 AM | #38 |
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Wookipedia is awesome! :-D
And speaking of different views on the force, many authors have treated it very differently. In Greg Bear's "Rogue Planet," we get the constant injunction that the Force is "not a nursemaid." I always remember that somehow whenever I try to use the Force .
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03-03-2014, 04:48 PM | #39 |
AngAdan
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Regarding Dark Side/"Light Side"/balance in the force, consider a quote of ERU, in my signature.
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Verily, the Dark side is an integral part of the force, which can never be banished, only managed. The recurring blindness of the the "light Side" Jedi to machinations on the dark side, when any 11 year old SCi Fi or even a wargaming fan could do an Admiral Ackbar and see the obvious traps and plots, is because they try to obliterate and banish the Dark Side, and are oblivious to it, rather than carefully watching it both within and without themselves.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 03-03-2014 at 04:56 PM. |
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