Religious Knowledge Thread

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Isn't it 'Inquisitors'?

Anyway, I don't think Pagan; I might say heathen, but more likely heretical.

Well that brings up the good point that for a very long time the word "pagan" was equivilent to the word "heretic" or even "devil worshiper". You didnt want to be called pagan for fear of your life. It was the worst kind of insult.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
And here I was thinking that Paganism was the belief in all pantheons. So confused...

*sigh* A pantheon is a family(ies) of dieties, who can and do exist individually....Spiritual belief is the acceptance that the physical realm gives power to individual things...........

And I thought that monotheism was difficult to grasp

[Insidious Rex]

I had monotheism once but I got better.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

If I am correct, a pantheon is the deities worshipped by a specific culture, right? Like Odin, Thor, Freya, etc. are all part of the Norse pantheon, while Ra, Osiris, and Isis are all part of the Egyptian pantheon? Or am I wrong again?

[Coney]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Well that brings up the good point that for a very long time the word "pagan" was equivilent to the word "heretic" or even "devil worshiper". You didnt want to be called pagan for fear of your life. It was the worst kind of insult.

Thank goodness we live in more enlightened times now

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I had monotheism once but I got better.

And I thought that Christians were the only ones allowed to be rude.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
If I am correct, a pantheon is the deities worshipped by a specific culture, right? Like Odin, Thor, Freya, etc. are all part of the Norse pantheon, while Ra, Osiris, and Isis are all part of the Egyptian pantheon? Or am I wrong again?

You're very wrong...sure such beliefs were once centralised, but as methods of communication grew, so did the worship of such pantheons (i.e the Roman religion...it is basically an assimilation of Greek/Gaulish/Egyption and Cetlic).

*shrugs*..such is the nature of Paganism, deny none.....believe in those which deserve it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Well that brings up the good point that for a very long time the word "pagan" was equivilent to the word "heretic" or even "devil worshiper". You didnt want to be called pagan for fear of your life. It was the worst kind of insult.

Heretic is reserved for someone who professes to believe in Christianity and then goes against that belief. It's generally pertains to Roman Catholics.

her·e·tic

A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

1. One who holds to a heresy; one who believes some doctrine contrary to the established faith or prevailing religion.


2. (R. C. Ch.) One who having made a profession of Christian belief, deliberately and pertinaciously refuses to believe one or more of the articles of faith ``determined by the authority of the universal church.''

If you are a heretic - then you are excommunicated from the church - which during the Middle Ages that practically was equivalent to a death sentence.

If you want to read a really good fantasy series that revolves around the Middle Ages and the church - read the Deryni Series by Katherine Kurtz.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I've read a few of those. Good books.

Of course, I meant the old Norse and old Egyptian pantheons. I wasn't too far off on that, was I?

Of course, if anyone else has any (non-offensive) questions regarding a religion, feel free to jump in!

P.S. Congrulations, Gwaimir Windgem, you've done it again! *bops self*

[Elven Archer]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Of course, if anyone else has any (non-offensive) questions regarding a religion, feel free to jump in!

I have one. It's about the Catholic religion. I don't get the difference between a cardinal,priest, and pope. I'm not even sure what a cardinal is.are they like different levels or something? I just never understood it. someone asked a teacher last year during one of our class discussions but she didn't know.

[HOBBIT]

I don't think most Jew's consider Jesus to be a prophet. There is no "official" Jewish position on this I think. I'm definately not an expert though. A lot completely deny his existance - in temple the name Jesus is not said at all or in hewbrew school.....not taught as a prophet. I know that Islam considers him to be a prophet, again I don't think Judiasm does. I could be wrong. I don't care too much either

With absolutely no proof or any real research, my personal opinion is that there was some guy named Jesus but he was just a guy Kind of like the movie "The life of Brian"

There have been many false messiahs in our history...many jews believe Jesus is one of them. Very practical idea

To repeat myself, to my knowledge Jesus is NOT considered a prophet. I guess just either some ordinary guy false messiah or he did not exist are the most common viewpoints. No official view....we are allowed to form our own opinions.

Jews for Jesus is completely rediculous imo. It is just a branch of Christianity. Not that I know anything about them, but Jews that believe that Jesus existed and that he is the messiah aren't really Jews.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
With absolutely no proof or any real research, my personal opinion is that there was some guy named Jesus but he was just a guy Kind of like the movie "The life of Brian"

Hes NOT the messiah! Hes a very naughty boy!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Hes NOT the messiah! Hes a very naughty boy!

Very funny movie.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Not being Catholic, I don't know for sure about this, but here's my attempt:

The Pope: The Head of the Roman Catholic Church, the Bishop of Rome, and the Vicar of Christ. The highest (excluding divine) spiritual authority.

Cardinals: A council of Catholic clergy who hold meetings in Rome, and choose the next Pope. I'm less sure about this one.

Priest: The Priest is, I believe, the lowest rank of ordained minister in the Catholic Church, and by far the most common.

Catholics, confirmation/correction?

[Insidious Rex]

Ok Coney Ive been poking around and Ive come to the conclusion that basically Paganism refers to essentially ancient religions that predate the big monotheistic religions while Neo-Paganism is essentially Paganism adopted in a modern age. Otherwise I cant see any difference. The only true Paganism left in the world are in tribal societies that long predate modern times like Native Americans or Aboriginees or any indiginous groups still hanging on to their old way of living and worshiping. Everything else tends to be neo-paganism simply because there was no unbroken and direct connection to an ancient source other then in interpretation. A friend who consideres herself a "Celtic Neo-Pagan" says its impossible for anyone to be a celtic pagan because they are extinct and we have no record of just how they worshiped and just what they believed. All we have is some very old standing stones and such. So some neo-pagans go about worshiping the stones. And incorperating it into their current rituals. So from all this really no one should call themselves pagan since the only true pagans dont realy recognize the word. its not part of their culture or their identity. they basically just see themselves as a people seperate from others. And if thats the case then theres really no point in making the distinction between current "neo-pagans" and current "pagans" at all. Its a little like arguing over whether birds are dinosaurs or not. Well yeah they are but the dinosaurs are all dead so no they arent and it doesnt really matter.

So with all that behind us..... I thought Id try to reaproach Gwaimer's question about paganism (ok he asked about Wiccanism but I consider that just a subset of neo-paganism). Heres an interesting quote from Drawing Down the Moon that I think those of us in the Tolkien community might find interesting:

"Most Neo-Pagans sense an aliveness and 'presence' in nature. They are usually polytheists or animists or pantheists, or two or three of these things at once. They share the goal of living in harmony with nature and they tend to view humanity's 'advancement' and seperation from nature as the prime source of alienation. They see ritual as a tool to end that alienation. Most Neo-Pagans look to the old pre-Christian nature religions of Europe, the ecstatic religions, and the mystery traditions as a source of inspiration and nourishment. They gravitate to ancient symbols and ancient myths, to the old polytheistic religions of the Greeks, the Egyptions, the Celts, and the Sumerians. They are reclaiming these sources, transforming them into something new, and adding to them the visions of Robert Graves, even of J. R. R. Tolkien and other writers of science fiction and fantasy, as well as some of the teachings and practices of the remaining aboriginal peoples."
---Drawing Down The Moon, Margot Adler

[Insidious Rex]

oh yeah. And speaking of Tolkien, I have a question for all the Christians on the board. Did you come to Tolkiens work through your religion at all? Or was it simply an artistic thing for you? When you read it did you find a verification of your beliefs or at least a strong identity of your christianity in his writings? Its not a mystery that a lot of christians seem to be into Tolkiens writings and we all know he was very devout. But Im just wondering if you guys felt some sort of relgious familiarity when you read his words. Not sure if Im wording this question right really.....

[markedel]

NO !

Jesus is not considered a prophet by Judaism.

At best he's a dead reformist rabbi killed with lots of other rather innovative Jews for various goings on (other Jewish rabbis, apochryphally (sp?) died far worse deaths).

Jesus gets some "bad press" in the Talmud, not much, but some. I can't give you refrences but I'm sure you could find them. A lot of the sections were censored to avoid having the books burned (for much the same reason lines that can be construed as attacking Christianity were not put in prayer books after a time).

Today most Rabbis lean towards the positive interpretation, most would not be so negative towards Christianity and Jesus as some have been in the past.

But, while Jesus the man may be connected with Judaism, Jesus as linked to the divine in some way is outside the realm of Jewish thought. Chrisitianity, after all, is diametrically opposed to a few Jewish values, has drastically different views on lots of other things, and looks at the things we both share drastically differently.

If you want to find a monotheistic religion that shares a lot with Judaism look at Islam. I don't know that much about it, but from what I know it is far more like Judaism then any type of Christianity.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
oh yeah. And speaking of Tolkien, I have a question for all the Christians on the board. Did you come to Tolkiens work through your religion at all? Or was it simply an artistic thing for you? When you read it did you find a verification of your beliefs or at least a strong identity of your christianity in his writings? Its not a mystery that a lot of christians seem to be into Tolkiens writings and we all know he was very devout. But Im just wondering if you guys felt some sort of relgious familiarity when you read his words. Not sure if Im wording this question right really.....

I didn't know that Tolkien's works were Christian when I first read them, or that Tolkien himself was a Christian. But the books did seem to be...I don't know...something about them seemed to fit in with my beliefs...much like the Narnia books before I knew they were Christian (hey, I was really young :P ).

Ok, thanks for your answer to that, markedel. I seemed to remember a Jewish friend of mine saying that he was considered a prophet by Judaism, but I guess I was wrong.

Which Jewish values do you consider Christianity to be diametrically opposed to? As for different view, I certainly agree on that. But I'm curious about these values.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Not being Catholic, I don't know for sure about this, but here's my attempt:

The Pope: The Head of the Roman Catholic Church, the Bishop of Rome, and the Vicar of Christ. The highest (excluding divine) spiritual authority.

Cardinals: A council of Catholic clergy who hold meetings in Rome, and choose the next Pope. I'm less sure about this one.

Priest: The Priest is, I believe, the lowest rank of ordained minister in the Catholic Church, and by far the most common.

Catholics, confirmation/correction?

As far as I know that sounds pretty correct....but you forgot to mention Bishops and archbishops....the Pope is elected from a number of Bishops and/archBishops. They are the ones who are in charge of specific dioceses. a man doesn't have to be ordained either bishop or priest to be a cardinal, and I think that a deacon is the lowest minister although I am not sure if they are ordained or not.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
oh yeah. And speaking of Tolkien, I have a question for all the Christians on the board. Did you come to Tolkiens work through your religion at all? Or was it simply an artistic thing for you? When you read it did you find a verification of your beliefs or at least a strong identity of your christianity in his writings? Its not a mystery that a lot of christians seem to be into Tolkiens writings and we all know he was very devout. But Im just wondering if you guys felt some sort of relgious familiarity when you read his words. Not sure if Im wording this question right really.....

I didn't know that Tolkien was a Christian/Catholic when I first started to read his writings. My mom told me that he was a devout Catholic and then I really started to see the connection in some of his works with Catholic doctrine, particularly the Sil.